[Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Chris Yates
chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
Wed Feb 9 00:23:51 PST 2011
Sorry Nick, my bad regarding the tangent. What you've described in
eQuest seems synonymous with the NoMass material in Energyplus.
Perhaps I can bring it a little bit back on topic. Jeff mentions the use
of Air walls to model existing buildings. However, if you know where all
the partitions are in an /existing/ building don't they introduce
artificial boundaries?
Chris
On 08/02/2011 19:10, Nick Caton wrote:
>
> This thread appears to have tangented into 3+ different directions...
> if you have a new inquiry please start a new email chain =)!
>
> Fransisco -- you should refine your questions by specifying which
> program you intend to use, or if your inquiry is of the "is there a
> program that can do this?" variety. Air walls _in eQuest_/_DOE2_
> behave as Suwon is describing. They are a type of interior partition
> and will not model heat transfer to the exterior, regardless of their
> geometrical location.
>
> Chris -- I use eQuest/DOE2 primarily. Please refer to recent
> discussion on [eQuest-users] where I attempted to sum up air wall
> behavior in both layman's and complex terms (discussion attached).
>
> To my understanding DOE2/eQuest models do not model heat transfer
> explicitly by either convection or radiation -- all heat movement
> within the model is calculated as a series of direct (conductive)
> transfers between zone surfaces (interior and exterior) on an hourly
> basis. Air walls are unique type of surface in that they have zero
> mass but a relatively low conductivity (by default, approximately the
> same as a single layer of 3/8" Gypsum), however this value can be
> modified as may be desired.
>
> To Rohini -- My existing model calibration experience is probably
> limited relative to others contributing -- but I can share the general
> observation/advice that your models can only ever be as accurate as
> your gathered data, or lack thereof. An important corollary I want to
> emphasize is that models ultimately serve a purpose, and that it's
> important at the beginning of any project to identify that endgame.
> Sometimes it's getting LEED points, sometimes it's advising new or
> retrofit design for existing envelopes, HVAC, and/or lighting,
> sometimes it's because there's academics who simply want a model they
> can pick up after you to tweak to perfection as time goes on...
>
> Defining where the model is headed in terms of intent will permit you
> to define a degree/deadband of acceptable accuracy. Without doing so,
> you may lose sanity/sleep to the beast before realizing you don't have
> a finish line defined.
>
> ~Nick
>
> cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB**
>
> **
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
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>
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>
> *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Francisco Massucci
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:14 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi,
>
> Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open window in a face
> with outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat loss or
> gains to the enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared transparent'
> in a exterior window, does it works as a open window, for energy
> balance calculation?
>
> Sorry about my english.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Francisco Massucci
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <ssw1007 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:ssw1007 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior walls without
> thermal mass effect, only for thermal resistance(0.9
> hr-ft2-F/btu) between zones. I think other similar simulation
> programs have also the same function.
>
> Suwon Song
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200
> From: massucci at gmail.com <mailto:massucci at gmail.com>
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to add a question to the list:
>
> - Air wall works the same when apllied in a between zones face or in
> an outdoor face?
>
> thanks
>
> Francisco Massucci
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates
> <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Jeff,
>
>
> You mention the use of "Real walls or *_air walls_*" between zones in
> your post. I feel this raises a question on this list that I've
> already enquired on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once
> more, however I did not feel that the discussion resulted in a clear
> conclusion of how various simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or
> "virtual partitions".
>
>
> I hope you don't mind me asking:
>
> * what programs do you use mainly?
> * under normal modelling practice, how would these programs treat
> "air walls" with respect to:
>
> o Conduction
> o Long-wave radiation
> o Short-wave radiation
> o Air flow
>
> Many thanks
>
> Chris
>
> On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
>
> ALSO:
>
> Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method and
> other findings, somewhat dated but useful:
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. "Improving Commercial Building Energy
> Audits: How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help," /ASHRAE
> Journal, /Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 26 - 36 (September).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. "Improving Commercial Building Energy
> Audits: How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data Can Help," /ASHRAE
> Journal,/ Vol. 32, No. 8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. "Status Report on Methods for Using
> Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on
> Building Energy Use," submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation
> Lab, Center for Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton
> University, Princeton, New Jersey (May).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. "Investigating An Analytical Basis for
> Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New
> Jersey Mall," /Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of
> Buildings IV,/ ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. "Investigating An Analytical
> Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results from a
> New Jersey Mall," Center for Energy and Environmental Studies Report
> No. 264 (June).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
> [bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] on behalf of Jeff
> Haberl [jhaberl at tamu.edu <mailto:jhaberl at tamu.edu>]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM
> *To:* Carol Gardner; R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Rohini,
>
> Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers that
> have looked into this with any rigor.
>
> In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis for
> the Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual
> zoning on the building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid
> of the "cloud" of data points remained about the same. However, the
> scatter in the cloud became more pronounced at we added more zones.
>
> So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd use
> 1, 2 or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going
> on in each zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get
> the job done.
>
> The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real
> building is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with
> walkie talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed,
> possibly some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor
> at PNNL. We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads,
> receptacles, etc. Seems to work pretty well.
>
> There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by
> proxy, by weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method
> that uses an energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies
> for for the occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type
> method was something that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later
> adopted by Bou Saada on the Forrestal building and daycare center. The
> daily readings are just that, read the main meter by eye, daily,
> especially during weather independent times. The energy balance method
> is documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.
>
> There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy
> on ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later
> this year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D.
> thesis.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> PS: here are some helpful papers:
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. "A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation
> of a New Commercial Building: Part I -- Calibrated As-built
> Simulation", /ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp.
> 375-388 (June ).
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. "A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation
> of a New Commercial Building: Part II -- Overall Methodology and
> Comparison of Results", /ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 114, Pt.
> 2, pp. 389 -- 403 (June).
>
> Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. "Electricity Diversity
> Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP)," /ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research,/ Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.
>
> Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. "Procedures for Calibrating Hourly
> Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental Data,"
> /ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering/, Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204
> (August).
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. "An Evaluation of the Impact
> of Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2
> Simulation of an Existing Building in Central Texas," /ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research, /Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June).
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. "Graphical
> Tools to help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-weather
> Dependent Measured Loads," /ASHRAE Journal/, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 -
> 32 (January).
>
> Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. "An Overview of 3-D
> Graphical Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data," /ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research, /Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January).
>
> Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. "Development of a Calibration Methodology
> for Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a Case-Study
> House in a Hot and Humid Climate", /Proceedings of the 17th Symposium
> on Improving Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates,/ Texas A&M
> University, Austin, Texas, accepted for publication (May).
>
> Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. "A Procedure
> for Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent
> Loads," /ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652
> (January).
>
>
> 8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=)8=?
>
> Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu
> <mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu>
>
> Professor............................................................Office
> Ph: 979-845-6507
>
> Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065
>
> Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457
>
> Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581
>
> College Station, Texas, USA,
> 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu <http://www.esl.tamu.edu/>
>
> 8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
> [bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] on behalf of Carol
> Gardner [cmg750 at gmail.com <mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM
> *To:* R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi Rohini,
>
> When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing things.
> You pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model.
> Those things you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the
> building is really being operated and to get the most accurate weather
> data you can for your site.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <slv3sat at gmail.com
> <mailto:slv3sat at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility bill),
> do you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together? What could
> be possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any ECM's that
> will be affected by this simplification?
>
> Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug
> loads without having to count everything on site?
>
> Thanks for any insights.
>
> -Rohini
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
>
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> --
>
> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> /Building Physics Consultant/
> Tel: +447960731576
> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> Skype: christopher.m.yates
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