[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost (Demba Ndiaye)
Benjamin Jordan
benmichaeljordan at gmail.com
Thu May 12 13:37:11 PDT 2011
I would be careful of only assuming an extra 40 hours to model the baseline
model (Appendix G) and complete the LEED documentation. Assembling the
documentation for the multiple rotations and comparing the proposed design
isn't a simple quick task. I would schedule somewhere in the 64-80 hour
range to model the baseline and complete the documentation, possibly more if
they expect you to model more than once (at different stages of design/etc).
Ben Jordan
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 4:30 PM, <bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org>wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus. (srishti srivastava)
> 2. Re: Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus. (Chris Yates)
> 3. Re: Leaf area index values for roof vegetation (Pedro Peixeiro)
> 4. Re: Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus. (srishti srivastava)
> 5. Re: Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus. (Shaun Martin)
> 6. Transsolar New York position announcement (Erik Olsen)
> 7. Energy Model Cost (Omar Delgado)
> 8. Re: Energy Model Cost (Demba Ndiaye)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 13:21:03 +0530
> From: srishti srivastava <ar.srishti at gmail.com>
> To: Chris Yates <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus.
> Message-ID: <BANLkTimOyLxkbmrt-xhoBv4CQN4wm1eXtQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Thanks to all,
>
> I would like to clarify the approach i have taken in the study at this
> point of time.
>
> The Building which is modelled is a sqaure block. There are five zones
> (four aligned in the cardinal directions and one in the centre), the
> depth of the zone is till 15 feet from the facade in each cardinal
> direction.
>
> Firstly, I am considering a glazed facade here, which might be either
> monolithic(one layer of glass) or Insulated Glazed Units (Double
> layers of glass 6 mm thick with an air gap of 12 mm sandwitched
> between them ). It is not a load bearing structure.There is no
> insulation separately used in the facade.
>
> Secondly, the glass is attached to the subframe which is subsequently
> attached to the main frame(both of which are aluminium). Or it can be
> directly attached to main frame.
>
> In short, the facade which needs to be simulated is not an opaque
> construction. Infact, it is fully glazed since i m considering a
> window wall ratio as high as 90 percent also as one of the variables
> in the study.
>
> Thus, the question remains to be the same.
> How to model curtain wall or rather curtain glazed facades in Eplus?
> How will the modelling for such type of facade be different from
> modelling a regular window?
>
> I really appreciate the time spent and effort made by people reading
> and replying to the thread.
>
> Srishti.
>
>
> On 5/11/11, Chris Yates <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Pedro,
> >
> > Thanks for this - it's good to be up to date with the latest E+
> > developments and this is a significant one.
> >
> > I'm not certain Srishti was asking about ventilated facades in the first
> > instance. I just threw it in there in my first response and the thread
> > has seemed to grow into a "ventilated facades" discussion!
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 10/05/2011 14:47, Pedro Peixeiro wrote:
> >> Hello everyone.
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> That limitation isn't present anymore. Solar radiation is partially
> >> absorbed by the interzone ceilling and floor (and eventually walls if
> >> present) but calculation is carried out to transmit the remaining
> >> diffuse and direct radiation into the subsequent zone. Reflections are
> >> also taken into account. But limitations still persist about shading
> >> devices:
> >> 1) they cannot be specificied to occupy just a fraction of the glazing
> >> area (fully deployed or no shading at all);
> >> 2) they can only be mounted on windows of exterior walls (though this
> >> allows to model the shading device before, after and in between double
> >> glazed windows of the exterior pane, it can't be be modeled for
> >> shading devices on the inner pane, room side;
> >> 3) there is still some limitations regarding airflow and convection
> >> coefficient control between the shading device and the glazing itself,
> >> because Eplus considers the shading device as a layer of the window it
> >> is mounted on, and no direct control can be done for that in-between
> >> window/shade air gap (this also prevents output results for the
> >> interior window surface of the outside pane, only outside surface
> >> temperature and shading temperature can be obtained).
> >>
> >> Srishti,
> >>
> >> So like it has been said, if you plan on simulating ventend facades in
> >> which the inside pane is opaque, you can model them using the Exterior
> >> Natural Vented Cavity object present in Eplus. If not, my advice is to
> >> setup your facade as a vertical stack of two or more zones divided by
> >> virtual partitions. Using Airflow Network objects, you can define all
> >> the air dampers you need on the outside pane and also the ventilation
> >> that occurs across the virtual partitions. Use Full Interior and
> >> Exterior Solar Distribution with Reflections (remember to keep your
> >> zone convex), choose a proper inside convection algorithm for the
> >> cavity (I suggest ISO 15099 Windows), and you should come across some
> >> relatively close results, considering the complexity of the problem
> >> itself.
> >>
> >> Pedro.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10-05-2011 12:32, Francisco Massucci wrote:
> >>> Srishti,
> >>>
> >>> Here is the entire text. My ctrl+C, Ctrl+v failed last time, sorry.
> >>>
> >>> *SIMULATING DOUBLE SKIN FACADE*
> >>>
> >>> I'm simulating an office with a double skin fa?ade using the
> >>> "exterior vented natural cavity."
> >>> The fa?ade is naturally ventilated and has Venetian blinds in the
> >>> gap. The blinds are exposed to solar
> >>> radiation and, during the day, they can reach very high temperatures
> >>> which may affect the temperature of the air in the gap and/or the
> >>> performance of the glass fa?ade. Does EnergyPlus take into
> >>> account these two effects?
> >>>
> >>> *Answer*
> >>> The exterior vented natural cavity model is for *opaque* surfaces
> >>> only and does not apply to glazing
> >>> systems. There is a model for blinds in the window gap that takes
> >>> those two things into account, but I
> >>> am not sure if it works together with the air flow window model.
> >>>
> >>> *Question*
> >>> Thanks for your answer. I compared two simulations, one with the
> >>> fa?ade as exterior vented cavity
> >>> and the other with the fa?ade as a simple window, and it seemed that
> >>> solar transmission through the
> >>> glazing system is the same in both the cases. Even if the exterior
> >>> vented cavity is only for opaque
> >>> surfaces do you think it is possible to use the model for a glass
> >>> fa?ade, using as input the data of the
> >>> glazing system (thermal emissivity and solar absorbtivity)? Which
> >>> differences or errors would occur
> >>> using that model?
> >>>
> >>> *Answer *
> >>> If I understand you correctly, I think what you are actually getting
> >>> in the model is a regular window
> >>> surrounded by a wall with a double skin. See if the inside face wall
> >>> surface temperatures are different.
> >>> The window shouldn't be changing.
> >>> The exterior vented cavity model, which assumes that all the solar is
> >>> blocked by a thin, solid layer on
> >>> the outside, cannot be used for glazing. Opaque means no
> >>> transmission. Inside EnergyPlus this
> >>> becomes a special boundary condition for surface heat transfer
> >>> modeling that is not available for
> >>> window modeling. The window still gets exterior environment boundary
> >>> conditions even though its
> >>> parent surface has the exterior cavity boundary condition.
> >>> Double fa?ade improvements are being planned for the future.
> >>>
> >>> *Possible Workaround *
> >>> if you really wanted to use the exterior vented cavity model on your
> >>> DF, it could apply to a case where
> >>> the double fa?ade has totally opaque shades that are closed tight.
> >>> You would use regular materials in
> >>> the construction for the surface that approximate the DF (no
> >>> subsurface and no glazing materials).
> >>> The baffle in the exterior cavity model can get quite hot and then
> >>> re-radiate infrared (but no
> >>> shortwave) and convect to the underlying surface. But note that air
> >>> gap models are much better
> >>> developed for windows than for regular constructions; you would have
> >>> to come up with thermal
> >>> properties for each layer. One advantage of this approach might be a
> >>> better model of transient
> >>> behavior because the window models are always steady state.
> >>> See also: EnergyPlus Technical Note ? Opaque Ventilated Fa?ades (July
> >>> 2007 User News)
> >>> On May 28, 2007, Emanuele Naboni (PhD Candidate), a visiting
> >>> researcher from the Politecnico di
> >>> Milano (Italy) gave a lecture at Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>> Laboratory on how he used EnergyPlus to
> >>> model Ventilated Opaque Fa?ades. A .pdf of his presentation is
> >>> available at
> >>> http://SimulationResearch.lbl.gov/reports.html<http://simulationresearch.lbl.gov/reports.html>under the heading "All
> >>> EnergyPlus Reports."
> >>> To save time, here is the direct link:
> >>> http://simulationresearch.lbl.gov/dirpubs/vent_facade.pdf
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Francisco Massucci.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Francisco Massucci
> >>> <massucci at gmail.com <mailto:massucci at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Srishti,
> >>>
> >>> Try to found a topic named "Double Facades" on bldg-sim list. I
> >>> asked the same question some time ago. The major problem in this
> >>> cases ,is the heat loss by convection inside de facade, because
> >>> otherwise it will percfectly work as a thin zone.
> >>>
> >>> I found something on google, someone asking for an energyplus's
> >>> developer:
> >>>
> >>> /I'm simulating an office with a double skin fa?ade using the
> >>> "exterior vented natural cavity." /
> >>> /The fa?ade is naturally ventilated and has Venetian blinds in
> >>> the gap. The blinds are exposed to solar /
> >>> /radiation and, during the day, they can reach very high
> >>> temperatures which may affect the temperature of the air in the
> >>> gap and/or the performance of the glass fa?ade. Does EnergyPlus
> >>> take into /
> >>> /account these two effects? /
> >>> /Answer /
> >>> /The exterior vented natural cavity model is for *opaque*
> >>> surfaces only and does not apply to glazing /
> >>> /systems. There is a model for blinds in the window gap that
> >>> takes those two things into account, but I /
> >>> /am not sure if it works together with the air flow window model./
> >>> /
> >>> /
> >>> Please let me know if you do some progress. I'm from Brazil and
> >>> our climate conditions are very similar.
> >>>
> >>> Good Luck,
> >>>
> >>> Francisco Massucci
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:10 AM, Chris Yates
> >>> <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Srishti,
> >>> I have no experience of the Therm/ LBNL Window link that you
> >>> speak of but as long as you're happy with working within the
> >>> limitations of the E+ shading calculation you should be fine.
> >>> I'm not sure of the latest E+ but the main historical
> >>> limitation I'm aware of is that solar gain to a zone is
> >>> absorbed by the floor (with some specific exceptions). This
> >>> is expedient for most simulation tasks but will not suffice
> >>> if you wish to model solar penetrating through subsequent
> >>> zones (within a double sheet facade, where the cavity is
> >>> modelled as a zone for example). The E+ documentation is
> >>> extensive and covers this in detail.
> >>> There are a number of options for the type of solar calc
> >>> undertaken. There are also options for convection
> >>> coefficient. You may find both of these affect results and
> >>> simulation time.
> >>> Good luck
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/05/2011 06:58, srishti srivastava wrote:
> >>>> Dear Friends,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am Srishti Srivastava from India. My research topic is
> related
> >>>> to
> >>>> evaluation of different types of facades in Indian context
> with
> >>>> special reference to the modern glazed facades.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am trying to simulate a building with curtain wall in Energy
> >>>> Plus. I
> >>>> know of one way of doing it through Window and Therm software
> >>>> from
> >>>> LBNL, although there are few issues in that. Is there any
> >>>> alternative
> >>>> way to simulate curtain wall in Energy Plus.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone have a prior experience of simulating curtain wall
> >>>> in
> >>>> Energy Plus. Can anyone help me in simulating a curtain wall
> in
> >>>> Energy
> >>>> Plus.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks in advance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Srishti Srivastava,
> >>>> India.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>>>
> >>>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>>> toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>>> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> >>>
> >>> /Building Physics Consultant/
> >>>
> >>> Tel:+447960731576
> >>>
> >>> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>> Skype: christopher.m.yates
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>>
> >>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>> to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>> toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> >> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> >
> > /Building Physics Consultant/
> >
> > Tel:+447960731576
> >
> > Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >
> > Skype: christopher.m.yates
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:25:58 +0100
> From: Chris Yates <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> To: srishti srivastava <ar.srishti at gmail.com>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus.
> Message-ID: <4DCB9996.1090209 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>
> Srishti,
>
> This is nothing out of the ordinary. Just use E+ standard fenestration
> objects.
>
> You're using Window. My approach would be to build up my glazing in
> Window, check it's performance and then manually transfer its
> performance data to the objects WindowMaterial:Glazing,
> WindowMaterial:Gas & Construction. There does appear to be an option to
> link with Window via Construction:WindowDataFile. I have not tried this
> yet.
>
> Best of luck
>
> Chris
>
> On 12/05/2011 08:51, srishti srivastava wrote:
> > Thanks to all,
> >
> > I would like to clarify the approach i have taken in the study at this
> > point of time.
> >
> > The Building which is modelled is a sqaure block. There are five zones
> > (four aligned in the cardinal directions and one in the centre), the
> > depth of the zone is till 15 feet from the facade in each cardinal
> > direction.
> >
> > Firstly, I am considering a glazed facade here, which might be either
> > monolithic(one layer of glass) or Insulated Glazed Units (Double
> > layers of glass 6 mm thick with an air gap of 12 mm sandwitched
> > between them ). It is not a load bearing structure.There is no
> > insulation separately used in the facade.
> >
> > Secondly, the glass is attached to the subframe which is subsequently
> > attached to the main frame(both of which are aluminium). Or it can be
> > directly attached to main frame.
> >
> > In short, the facade which needs to be simulated is not an opaque
> > construction. Infact, it is fully glazed since i m considering a
> > window wall ratio as high as 90 percent also as one of the variables
> > in the study.
> >
> > Thus, the question remains to be the same.
> > How to model curtain wall or rather curtain glazed facades in Eplus?
> > How will the modelling for such type of facade be different from
> > modelling a regular window?
> >
> > I really appreciate the time spent and effort made by people reading
> > and replying to the thread.
> >
> > Srishti.
> >
> >
> > On 5/11/11, Chris Yates<chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi Pedro,
> >>
> >> Thanks for this - it's good to be up to date with the latest E+
> >> developments and this is a significant one.
> >>
> >> I'm not certain Srishti was asking about ventilated facades in the first
> >> instance. I just threw it in there in my first response and the thread
> >> has seemed to grow into a "ventilated facades" discussion!
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> On 10/05/2011 14:47, Pedro Peixeiro wrote:
> >>> Hello everyone.
> >>>
> >>> Chris,
> >>>
> >>> That limitation isn't present anymore. Solar radiation is partially
> >>> absorbed by the interzone ceilling and floor (and eventually walls if
> >>> present) but calculation is carried out to transmit the remaining
> >>> diffuse and direct radiation into the subsequent zone. Reflections are
> >>> also taken into account. But limitations still persist about shading
> >>> devices:
> >>> 1) they cannot be specificied to occupy just a fraction of the glazing
> >>> area (fully deployed or no shading at all);
> >>> 2) they can only be mounted on windows of exterior walls (though this
> >>> allows to model the shading device before, after and in between double
> >>> glazed windows of the exterior pane, it can't be be modeled for
> >>> shading devices on the inner pane, room side;
> >>> 3) there is still some limitations regarding airflow and convection
> >>> coefficient control between the shading device and the glazing itself,
> >>> because Eplus considers the shading device as a layer of the window it
> >>> is mounted on, and no direct control can be done for that in-between
> >>> window/shade air gap (this also prevents output results for the
> >>> interior window surface of the outside pane, only outside surface
> >>> temperature and shading temperature can be obtained).
> >>>
> >>> Srishti,
> >>>
> >>> So like it has been said, if you plan on simulating ventend facades in
> >>> which the inside pane is opaque, you can model them using the Exterior
> >>> Natural Vented Cavity object present in Eplus. If not, my advice is to
> >>> setup your facade as a vertical stack of two or more zones divided by
> >>> virtual partitions. Using Airflow Network objects, you can define all
> >>> the air dampers you need on the outside pane and also the ventilation
> >>> that occurs across the virtual partitions. Use Full Interior and
> >>> Exterior Solar Distribution with Reflections (remember to keep your
> >>> zone convex), choose a proper inside convection algorithm for the
> >>> cavity (I suggest ISO 15099 Windows), and you should come across some
> >>> relatively close results, considering the complexity of the problem
> >>> itself.
> >>>
> >>> Pedro.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10-05-2011 12:32, Francisco Massucci wrote:
> >>>> Srishti,
> >>>>
> >>>> Here is the entire text. My ctrl+C, Ctrl+v failed last time, sorry.
> >>>>
> >>>> *SIMULATING DOUBLE SKIN FACADE*
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm simulating an office with a double skin fa?ade using the
> >>>> "exterior vented natural cavity."
> >>>> The fa?ade is naturally ventilated and has Venetian blinds in the
> >>>> gap. The blinds are exposed to solar
> >>>> radiation and, during the day, they can reach very high temperatures
> >>>> which may affect the temperature of the air in the gap and/or the
> >>>> performance of the glass fa?ade. Does EnergyPlus take into
> >>>> account these two effects?
> >>>>
> >>>> *Answer*
> >>>> The exterior vented natural cavity model is for *opaque* surfaces
> >>>> only and does not apply to glazing
> >>>> systems. There is a model for blinds in the window gap that takes
> >>>> those two things into account, but I
> >>>> am not sure if it works together with the air flow window model.
> >>>>
> >>>> *Question*
> >>>> Thanks for your answer. I compared two simulations, one with the
> >>>> fa?ade as exterior vented cavity
> >>>> and the other with the fa?ade as a simple window, and it seemed that
> >>>> solar transmission through the
> >>>> glazing system is the same in both the cases. Even if the exterior
> >>>> vented cavity is only for opaque
> >>>> surfaces do you think it is possible to use the model for a glass
> >>>> fa?ade, using as input the data of the
> >>>> glazing system (thermal emissivity and solar absorbtivity)? Which
> >>>> differences or errors would occur
> >>>> using that model?
> >>>>
> >>>> *Answer *
> >>>> If I understand you correctly, I think what you are actually getting
> >>>> in the model is a regular window
> >>>> surrounded by a wall with a double skin. See if the inside face wall
> >>>> surface temperatures are different.
> >>>> The window shouldn't be changing.
> >>>> The exterior vented cavity model, which assumes that all the solar is
> >>>> blocked by a thin, solid layer on
> >>>> the outside, cannot be used for glazing. Opaque means no
> >>>> transmission. Inside EnergyPlus this
> >>>> becomes a special boundary condition for surface heat transfer
> >>>> modeling that is not available for
> >>>> window modeling. The window still gets exterior environment boundary
> >>>> conditions even though its
> >>>> parent surface has the exterior cavity boundary condition.
> >>>> Double fa?ade improvements are being planned for the future.
> >>>>
> >>>> *Possible Workaround *
> >>>> if you really wanted to use the exterior vented cavity model on your
> >>>> DF, it could apply to a case where
> >>>> the double fa?ade has totally opaque shades that are closed tight.
> >>>> You would use regular materials in
> >>>> the construction for the surface that approximate the DF (no
> >>>> subsurface and no glazing materials).
> >>>> The baffle in the exterior cavity model can get quite hot and then
> >>>> re-radiate infrared (but no
> >>>> shortwave) and convect to the underlying surface. But note that air
> >>>> gap models are much better
> >>>> developed for windows than for regular constructions; you would have
> >>>> to come up with thermal
> >>>> properties for each layer. One advantage of this approach might be a
> >>>> better model of transient
> >>>> behavior because the window models are always steady state.
> >>>> See also: EnergyPlus Technical Note ? Opaque Ventilated Fa?ades (July
> >>>> 2007 User News)
> >>>> On May 28, 2007, Emanuele Naboni (PhD Candidate), a visiting
> >>>> researcher from the Politecnico di
> >>>> Milano (Italy) gave a lecture at Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>> Laboratory on how he used EnergyPlus to
> >>>> model Ventilated Opaque Fa?ades. A .pdf of his presentation is
> >>>> available at
> >>>> http://SimulationResearch.lbl.gov/reports.html<http://simulationresearch.lbl.gov/reports.html>under the heading "All
> >>>> EnergyPlus Reports."
> >>>> To save time, here is the direct link:
> >>>> http://simulationresearch.lbl.gov/dirpubs/vent_facade.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Francisco Massucci.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Francisco Massucci
> >>>> <massucci at gmail.com<mailto:massucci at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Srishti,
> >>>>
> >>>> Try to found a topic named "Double Facades" on bldg-sim list. I
> >>>> asked the same question some time ago. The major problem in this
> >>>> cases ,is the heat loss by convection inside de facade, because
> >>>> otherwise it will percfectly work as a thin zone.
> >>>>
> >>>> I found something on google, someone asking for an energyplus's
> >>>> developer:
> >>>>
> >>>> /I'm simulating an office with a double skin fa?ade using the
> >>>> "exterior vented natural cavity." /
> >>>> /The fa?ade is naturally ventilated and has Venetian blinds in
> >>>> the gap. The blinds are exposed to solar /
> >>>> /radiation and, during the day, they can reach very high
> >>>> temperatures which may affect the temperature of the air in the
> >>>> gap and/or the performance of the glass fa?ade. Does EnergyPlus
> >>>> take into /
> >>>> /account these two effects? /
> >>>> /Answer /
> >>>> /The exterior vented natural cavity model is for *opaque*
> >>>> surfaces only and does not apply to glazing /
> >>>> /systems. There is a model for blinds in the window gap that
> >>>> takes those two things into account, but I /
> >>>> /am not sure if it works together with the air flow window
> model./
> >>>> /
> >>>> /
> >>>> Please let me know if you do some progress. I'm from Brazil and
> >>>> our climate conditions are very similar.
> >>>>
> >>>> Good Luck,
> >>>>
> >>>> Francisco Massucci
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:10 AM, Chris Yates
> >>>> <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >>>> <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Srishti,
> >>>> I have no experience of the Therm/ LBNL Window link that you
> >>>> speak of but as long as you're happy with working within the
> >>>> limitations of the E+ shading calculation you should be fine.
> >>>> I'm not sure of the latest E+ but the main historical
> >>>> limitation I'm aware of is that solar gain to a zone is
> >>>> absorbed by the floor (with some specific exceptions). This
> >>>> is expedient for most simulation tasks but will not suffice
> >>>> if you wish to model solar penetrating through subsequent
> >>>> zones (within a double sheet facade, where the cavity is
> >>>> modelled as a zone for example). The E+ documentation is
> >>>> extensive and covers this in detail.
> >>>> There are a number of options for the type of solar calc
> >>>> undertaken. There are also options for convection
> >>>> coefficient. You may find both of these affect results and
> >>>> simulation time.
> >>>> Good luck
> >>>> Chris
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/05/2011 06:58, srishti srivastava wrote:
> >>>>> Dear Friends,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am Srishti Srivastava from India. My research topic is
> related
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> evaluation of different types of facades in Indian context
> with
> >>>>> special reference to the modern glazed facades.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am trying to simulate a building with curtain wall in
> Energy
> >>>>> Plus. I
> >>>>> know of one way of doing it through Window and Therm
> software
> >>>>> from
> >>>>> LBNL, although there are few issues in that. Is there any
> >>>>> alternative
> >>>>> way to simulate curtain wall in Energy Plus.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does anyone have a prior experience of simulating curtain
> wall
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> Energy Plus. Can anyone help me in simulating a curtain wall
> in
> >>>>> Energy
> >>>>> Plus.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks in advance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Srishti Srivastava,
> >>>>> India.
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>>>> toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>>>> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> >>>>
> >>>> /Building Physics Consultant/
> >>>>
> >>>> Tel:+447960731576
> >>>>
> >>>> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >>>> <mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> Skype: christopher.m.yates
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>>>
> >>>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>>> to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>>> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message
> >>>> toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bldg-sim mailing list
> >>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> >>> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> >> --
> >>
> >> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> >>
> >> /Building Physics Consultant/
> >>
> >> Tel:+447960731576
> >>
> >> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> >>
> >> Skype: christopher.m.yates
> >>
> >>
>
> --
>
> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
>
> /Building Physics Consultant/
>
> Tel:+447960731576
>
> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
>
> Skype: christopher.m.yates
>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:31:33 +0100
> From: Pedro Peixeiro <ppeixeiro at lnec.pt>
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Leaf area index values for roof vegetation
> Message-ID: <4DCBB705.9090109 at lnec.pt>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Sotiris asked the same question in Eplus mailing list, and someone
> posted this link. I'll just post it here as well to share it with the rest.
>
> http://daac.ornl.gov/VEGETATION/LAI_support_images.html#table
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
> On 11-05-2011 19:55, Tabares Velasco, Paulo Cesar wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cheney,
> >
> > Happy to hear you also worked on this area. We were working on green
> > roofs, but perhaps not same research methodology/ scope. I am not
> > doing green roof at this time but I did it couple of years ago while I
> > was doing my PhD at PennState working under supervision of Dr. Jelena
> > Srebric and did all my experimental work inside an full-scale
> > environmental chamber. In that way I was able to control environmental
> > conditions such as radiation, air temp/RH/speed. Moreover, I measured
> > simultaneously conduction, radiation (short and long wave), convection
> > and evapotranspiration, as well as water content of substrate, LAI,
> > plants and substrate temperature. It was a very detailed work
> > probably beyond the scope of Sotiris' initial question and I had to
> > design and built a new apparatus to measure all these heat fluxes. I
> > would be glad to talk more in detail, but perhaps we are going little
> > bit beyond the scope of this mail list.
> >
> > So our studies might be similar but not precisely the same. We wanted
> > to have a fully validated green roof model (based on physics
> > principles), and back on those days we could not find the type/quality
> > of experimental data to do this job so we produced this
> > laboratory-grade data.
> >
> > Greetings!
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > *From:*Cheney [mailto:chenyu73 at gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:25 PM
> > *To:* Tabares Velasco, Paulo Cesar
> > *Cc:* Sotiris Papantoniou; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Leaf area index values for roof vegetation
> >
> > Wow, you are doing exactly same research as I did before! ;)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cheney
> >
> > LinkedIN @ http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen/27/637/72b
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Tabares Velasco, Paulo Cesar
> > <Paulo.Tabares at nrel.gov <mailto:Paulo.Tabares at nrel.gov>> wrote:
> >
> > Sotiris,
> >
> > LAI values can range from 0(no plants) to 5 or higher. However,
> > typical LAI values for extensive green roofs (substrate/soil thickness
> > less than 6") are around 1--3. For my PhD Thesis at PennState I
> > measured among other things the LAI of a healthy green roof sample
> > with /Delosperma nubigenum/. The LAI was 2.7.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > *Paulo Cesar Tabares-Velasco, Ph.D.*
> >
> > Postdoctoral Researcher
> >
> > Electricity, Resources & Building Systems Integration
> >
> > National Renewable Energy Lab
> >
> > 1617 Cole Blvd. MS 5202
> >
> > Golden, CO 80401
> >
> > 303.384.7591 <tel:303.384.7591> direct
> >
> > 303.384.7540 <tel:303.384.7540> fax
> >
> > paulo.tabares at nrel.gov <mailto:paulo.tabares at nrel.gov>
> >
> > http://www.nrel.gov <http://www.nrel.gov/>
> >
> > *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> > <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
> > [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> > <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of
> > *Sotiris Papantoniou
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2011 11:06 AM
> >
> >
> > *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> > *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Leaf area index values for roof vegetation
> >
> > Hello list,
> >
> > I am doing a research for green-roofs analyzed with energyplus.
> > Although I have searched the internet for default or average values
> > for LAI per plant or per group of plants, I had no luck.
> >
> > Can you please give me some guidance or some links about this value???
> >
> > Thank you in advance
> >
> > Sotiris Papantoniou
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bldg-sim mailing list
> > http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> > BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> > <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bldg-sim mailing list
> > http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 20:21:31 +0530
> From: srishti srivastava <ar.srishti at gmail.com>
> To: Chris Yates <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus.
> Message-ID: <BANLkTik5u+KQXjfQEGgGHseVKc+HeaG8Hg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Chris,
>
> I have tried the option to link with Window via
> Construction:WindowDataFile,
> it works fine with the windows with frame and glass but with curtain
> glazing
> there are problems in modeling the window in therm and importing it in
> energy plus(This is the reason why i was asking to directly model it in
> Energy Plus in my first mail itself.)
>
> Thanks for the other suggestion of doing it in window and manually
> transferring the values into Energy Plus model, I will try that out and get
> back soon.
>
> Thanks Again,
> Srishti.
> India.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:12:28 -0700
> From: "Shaun Martin" <smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com>
> To: "'srishti srivastava'" <ar.srishti at gmail.com>, "'Chris Yates'"
> <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus.
> Message-ID: <28524558774A4552B91F3289118DD1EA at SM>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Srishtri,
>
> I suggest looking at the WindowProperty:FrameAndDivider and
> FenestrationSurface:Detailed topics in the Eplus input/output reference
> documentation. You can find an example of these inputs in the file
> AirflowNetwork_MultiZone_SmallOffice.idf.
>
> Shaun
>
>
> _____
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of srishti
> srivastava
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:52 AM
> To: Chris Yates
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulating Curtain Wall in Energy Plus.
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I have tried the option to link with Window via
> Construction:WindowDataFile,
> it works fine with the windows with frame and glass but with curtain
> glazing
> there are problems in modeling the window in therm and importing it in
> energy plus(This is the reason why i was asking to directly model it in
> Energy Plus in my first mail itself.)
>
> Thanks for the other suggestion of doing it in window and manually
> transferring the values into Energy Plus model, I will try that out and get
> back soon.
>
> Thanks Again,
> Srishti.
> India.
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 15:28:19 -0400
> From: Erik Olsen <olsen at transsolar.com>
> To: "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Transsolar New York position announcement
> Message-ID: <4DCC34D3.7090701 at transsolar.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> ENERGY AND CLIMATE CONCEPT DEVELOPMENT AND VALIDATION ENGINEER
>
> Transsolar is a German-based climate engineering firm, and one of the
> premier such offices in the world. We are seeking talented, highly
> motivated engineers for our New York office.
>
> Transsolar develops and validate concepts for high quality environments
> that require minimal energy use. To achieve this we work collaboratively
> within the design team from the start of the design process, considering
> each step from the standpoint of fundamental thermodynamics. This
> generates a climate concept in which form, material, and mechanical
> systems are synergistic components of a well-orchestrated climate
> control system; and conversely, an environmental control strategy that
> is integral to the architectural concept.
>
> We use a wide variety of complex computer simulation tools to evaluate
> our concepts, developing unique analytical methods based on a deep
> understanding of engineering physics. We perform dynamic thermal
> simulation using TRNSYS to develop and validate appropriate, reliable
> concepts in relationship to the complex set of factors that is unique to
> each project. Similarly, we perform daylight simulations using RADIANCE
> and computational fluid dynamics (CFD) using FLUENT.
>
> Transsolar engineers are often specialized in their work, but all carry
> out a broad range of tasks. Responsibilities for this position include:
> - Development of climate and energy concepts in response to local
> climate, site, architectural, and programmatic requirements
> - Development, testing and validation of concepts via TRNSYS
> - Engineering analysis via EES, hand calculation, spreadsheet
> analysis, and other engineering analysis tools
> - Programming of new simulation and analysis tools in TRNSYS, EES, and
> spreadsheets
> - Internal coordination with other simulation specialists, synthesis,
> and communication of overall analysis results
> - Graphical representation of climate concepts and complex engineering
> analysis
> - Writing reports and correspondence
> - Participation in meetings and design charettes
> - Collaboration with German Transsolar offices
> - Domestic and international travel to project meetings and sites
>
> Engineers with an emphasis on dynamic thermal simulation are our highest
> priority. Both entry-level positions and positions for 3-5 years
> experience are available. Our New York office is small but growing,
> providing ample opportunity for advancement.
>
> PREFERRED QUALIFICATIONS INCLUDE:
> - Engineering or applied science education related to building energy
> flows and building science: heat transfer, thermodynamics, fluid
> mechanics, indoor and outdoor human comfort, etc. Ideal is a degree in
> mechanical engineering or applied physics. An M.S. is strongly preferred.
> - Experience with computational engineering analysis (text-based
> input, computer programming, scripting such as Perl, spreadsheet
> analysis and macro programming such as VBA)
> - Experience with dynamic thermal simulation (energy simulation)
> - Proven ability to creatively develop and apply non-traditional
> climate solutions to the indoor environment
> - Education/professional experience with current and advanced
> architectural technologies (e.g. building envelope) and mechanical
> systems for building climate control
> - Experience with physical testing of engineering systems: system
> construction, instrumentation and measurement, etc.
> - Experience collaborating and communicating in the early stages of an
> architectural design process
> - Excellent oral and written communication skills
> - Computer-based drawing skills (e.g. Corel Draw, Adobe Illustrator, etc)
>
> Applicants with an architectural background will not be considered; an
> engineering- or science-based degree is required for this position.
> Interested applicants may submit their resume and cover letter via email
> to nycjobs at transsolar.com
>
> --
> Erik Olsen, PE
> Managing Director
> Transsolar Inc. | 134 Spring St. Suite 601 | New York, NY 10012
>
> Transsolar Climate Engineering
> Technical consulting for energy efficiency and environmental quality in
> buildings
> New York - Stuttgart - Munich
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:07:46 -0700
> From: "Omar Delgado" <odelgado at enermechpr.com>
> To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
> Message-ID: <003201cc10f9$68b5d570$3a218050$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
> Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received
> an
> RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
> certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE
> 90.1)
> to evaluate the difference between the base
>
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take.
> I
> know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Omar A. Delgado Col?n, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C
>
> Vice President
>
> EnerMech
>
> PMB 340
>
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
>
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
>
> <mailto:info at enermechpr.com> info at enermechpr.com
>
> <http://www.enermechpr.com/> www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> cid:image004.gif at 01CAF34A.CAB15830 Please consider your environmental
> responsibility before printing this e-mail
>
> This Email is covered by the Electronics Communications Privacy Act, 18
> U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and is legally priviliged. The information in
> this
> email is personal and confidential and is intended solely for the
> addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you
> are not an intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the
> information contained in the email. Any views expressed in this message are
> those of the individual sender and may be subject to Attorney/Client
> privilege and/or Work Product. You are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communications is strictly
> prohibited.
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:28:02 -0400
> From: Demba Ndiaye <Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com>
> To: Omar Delgado <odelgado at enermechpr.com>,
> "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
> Message-ID:
> <BBD3B8CDB75B5248AC6C9D7D8F0121ED026E6099B4 at ffxmail-01.hq.setty.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Omar,
>
> I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply
> by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and
> any review you may have to respond to later.
>
> Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more
> time, possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
> HTH,
>
> _______________
> Demba NDIAYE
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
> Every energy model I've done so far has been for
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received
> an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
> certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE
> 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take.
> I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Omar A. Delgado Col?n, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C
> Vice President
> EnerMech
> PMB 340
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
> info at enermechpr.com<mailto:info at enermechpr.com>
> www.enermechpr.com<http://www.enermechpr.com/>
>
>
>
> [cid:image001.gif at 01CC10C1.38875EB0] Please consider your environmental
> responsibility before printing this e-mail
> This Email is covered by the Electronics Communications Privacy Act, 18
> U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and is legally priviliged. The information in this
> email is personal and confidential and is intended solely for the
> addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you
> are not an intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the
> information contained in the email. Any views expressed in this message are
> those of the individual sender and may be subject to Attorney/Client
> privilege and/or Work Product. You are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communications is strictly
> prohibited.
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>
>
> End of Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 42, Issue 10
> ****************************************
>
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