[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
Arpan Bakshi
arpanbakshi at gmail.com
Fri May 13 06:09:17 PDT 2011
Marcus, thank you incorporating this language.
The one scenario we often see in our design guidance work is that a
proposed design when compared with other design alternates does not
necessarily provided the largest energy savings when compared against
its own baseline case model. It is difficult to make a recommendation
as consultants when we want to present the Owner with both real energy
cost savings without compromising their LEED certification level
targets.
A recent paper presented by the Weidt Group at SimBuild touched on
this issue:
http://www.ibpsa.us/pub/simbuild2010/technicalPresentations/SB10-PPT-TS02A-03-Baker.pdf
Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C
YRG sustainability
On May 13, 2011, at 8:16 AM, "Marcus Sheffer" <sheffer at energyopportunities.com
> wrote:
> If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits
> to end the practice of validation models at the end and encourage/
> require design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would
> love to hear them. The current proposed credit language from the
> first public comment phase is listed below.
>
>
>
> NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY
>
> Establish an energy performance target no later than the schematic
> design phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square foot-
> year of source energy use. This target must be mapped on the same
> scale as the baseline and proposed buildings, if the project follows
> Option 1.
>
>
>
> OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation
>
> Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the
> design process and account for the results in design decision-
> making. Analysis can include energy simulation of efficiency
> opportunities, application of past energy simulation analyses for
> similar projects to the project, or application of published data
> from energy analyses performed for similar projects to the project
> (such as AEDGs).
>
>
>
> A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load
> reduction strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed.
> This analysis must be performed during the schematic design phase.
>
>
>
> A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC
> related strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are
> acceptable). This analysis must be performed before the conclusion
> of the design development phase.
>
>
>
> The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or
> memorandum.
>
>
>
>
>
> The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again
> in July, I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing
> here.
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> From: John Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM
> To: Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?
>
>
>
> I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20
> walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if
> I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply with a certain
> level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances
> of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put
> in all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the
> ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely different system. I am
> just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the
> Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was
> packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did that).
>
>
>
> It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf
> office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.
>
>
>
> I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the
> modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in
> under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can
> do better, let him.
>
>
>
> Contingency, contingency.
>
>
>
> We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..
>
>
>
> John A.
>
>
>
> From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
> To: sheffer at energyopportunities.com
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
> Marcus,
>
> You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to
> create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling
> Professional (BEMP).
>
> Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a
> couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing
> on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of
> training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome
> was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced
> as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn
> how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or
> if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a
> path to certification that we would give clients one more
> qualification to look for in their modelers.
>
> If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by
> industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you
> don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your
> energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save
> $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I
> am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more
> work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts
> about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?
>
> So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE
> Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the
> difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of
> which are one line, available, and easily searchable.
>
> So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really?
> Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John
> Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to
> something.
>
> It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate
> our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they
> think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used
> to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that
> and to be reminded that GIGO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
>
> Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com
> > wrote:
>
> In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80
> hours.
>
>
>
> WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:
>
>
>
> Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to
> why we model – it is to guide design decisions!
>
>
>
> If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine
> LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the
> potential client about the purpose of modeling.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the
> minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all
> the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a
> least first cost denominator basis that results in little real trans
> formation. Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform
> the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behin
> d LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)
>
>
>
> Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to
> explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out o
> f the corp” in my humble opinion.
>
>
>
> The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or
> more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go
> up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far
> less time. So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for
> a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level pla
> ying field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion
> about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-
> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
> To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Omar,
>
>
>
> I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours
> (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED
> documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.
>
>
>
> Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you
> more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> _______________
>
> Demba NDIAYE
>
>
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-
> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED
> project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I
> received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC
> Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G
> (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
>
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will
> take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C
>
> Vice President
>
> EnerMech
>
> PMB 340
>
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
>
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
>
> info at enermechpr.com
>
> www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
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