[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Arpan Bakshi arpanbakshi at gmail.com
Fri May 13 08:19:28 PDT 2011


In efforts to summarize the pricing conversation, that the pricing should be
established by modeling complexity instead of by building size, is the
following a fair assessment of what everyone's comments amount to?

LEED Certified: 60-80 hours
LEED Silver: 80-160 hours
LEED Gold: 160-250 hours
LEED Platinum: 250-350 hours


On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Julia Beabout <juliabeabout at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Omar,
> This is cracking me up.  I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on
> one issue!  LOL.
> Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of
> time has much more to do with the level of certification the project is
> going for, at what point the modeling services are engaged in the design,
> and the type and complexity of the building (systems).  That's not to say
> the number of manhours is completely independent of building size (square
> footage), but its not particularly sensitive to it.  I find that that there
> is a high "low" and low "high" for modeling.  In other words, it's hard to
> complete an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and done -
> paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250 hours.
> (Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could take up to
> 350 hours).  Like others, I find the norm for a reasonably complex bldg
> going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and 160 hours.
>
> Marcus
> Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as
> well.  Thanks for the heads up.
> I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great
> idea, but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate.  Perhaps it
> could be encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for
> starting modeling in schematic design.  Or, perhaps the credit could be
> restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX
> credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design.  In
> some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress
> points for increased levels of saving.  Quite frankly, if you are going for
> 50% savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really
> early in the process.
>
> I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is
> inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging
> energy modeling.  The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent
> - based on building size, scope, complexity, type, level of LEED
> certification shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget.  Let's
> face it, the vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the
> energy in the US are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc.  These
> projects barely event have a schematic, design and CD phase.  While we all
> love to work on the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are
> likely to have a large budget for design, these are not the majority of
> bldgs consuming energy.  I think we should be doing more to encourage
> modeling and energy savings amongst the every day projects than the "sexy"
> projects.  It seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in
> this direction in lieu of prescriptive requirements that could
> discourage/put off smaller projects from even attempting to incorporate
> modeling.
>
> Julia
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com>
>
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Fri, May 13, 2011 8:16:56 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>  If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to
> end the practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require
> design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear
> them.  The current proposed credit language from the first public comment
> phase is listed below.
>
>
>
> NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY
>
> Establish an energy performance target no later than the schematic design
> phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year of source
> energy use. This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and
> proposed buildings, if the project follows Option 1.
>
>
>
> OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation
>
> Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design
> process and account for the results in design decision-making. Analysis can
> include energy simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past
> energy simulation analyses for similar projects to the project, or
> application of published data from energy analyses performed for similar
> projects to the project (such as AEDGs).
>
>
>
> A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction
> strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This analysis must
> be performed during the schematic design phase.
>
>
>
> A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related
> strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This analysis
> must be performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.
>
>
>
> The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or
> memorandum.
>
>
>
>
>
> The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in
> July, I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* John Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM
> *To:* Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?
>
>
>
> I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls
> and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong,
> but a Base model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1
> (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to
> build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by
> hand.  And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely
> different system.  I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE
> 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual
> building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did
> that).
>
>
>
> It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office
> or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.
>
>
>
> I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling
> has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours,
> preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.
>
>
>
> Contingency, contingency.
>
>
>
> We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..
>
>
>
> John A.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
> *To:* sheffer at energyopportunities.com
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
> Marcus,
>
> You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a
> BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP).
>
> Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
> years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv
> with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience
> that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to
> realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to
> be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were
> uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped
> that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more
> qualification to look for in their modelers.
>
> If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
> mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
> chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a
> LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get
> is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will
> probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll
> start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?
>
> So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
> technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find
> any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and
> easily searchable.
>
> So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me
> and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So
> I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.
>
> It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our
> clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they
> are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120
> hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that
> GIGO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
>
> Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <
> sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:
>
>  In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.
>
>
>
> WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:
>
>
>
> Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we
> model – it is to guide design decisions!
>
>
>
> If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED
> points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client
> about the purpose of modeling.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum
> when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits.
> Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least first cost
> denominator basis that results in little real transformation.  Doing models
> to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and
> just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually
> requires design phase modeling!)
>
>
>
> Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to
> the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my
> humble opinion.
>
>
>
> The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more
> hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against
> the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.  So how do we
> get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that
> they can compare fees on a level playing field?  It is unfortunate that we
> are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its
> purpose.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Demba Ndiaye
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
> *To:* Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Omar,
>
>
>
> I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply
> by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and
> any review you may have to respond to later.
>
>
>
> Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more
> time, possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> _______________
>
> Demba NDIAYE
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Omar Delgado
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
> Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received
> an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
> certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE
> 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
>
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take.
> I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> *Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C*
>
> *Vice President*
>
> *EnerMech*
>
> PMB 340
>
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
>
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
>
> info at enermechpr.com
>
> www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
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-- 


Arpan Bakshi,* *LEED AP BD+C
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