[Bldg-sim] How to set the loop loss as 5 or 10%?

[Esmireta]

Hi, Rut,
Thanks for your reply!
I will try to document the results clearly, though it seems lack of logical support to do that.
Esmi






At 2013-04-23 23:26:51,"Rut Wattanasak" <rwattanasak at emoenergy.com> wrote:

Esmi,


I have made the same conclusion before, but the increase in energy consumption was unreasonably high, as you've observed; thus, prompting further look.  However, in eQUEST I have the alternative in inputting Loop Loss in Supply Loss UA, in addition to Loss dT.


Without knowing how your model was set up, it's hard for me to speculate any further on the energy+costs increase.


If you can determine the energy consumption of the district/primary loop, then continue to adjust your Loop Loss deltaT until the additional 10% is met per Mitchell's suggestion.  You can document the results to provide to LEED for supporting docs.


Good luck,


Rut  


From: Esmireta
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 11:42 PM
To: Rut Wattanasak; BLDGSIM
Subject: Re:RE: [Bldg-sim] How to set the loop loss as 5 or 10%?
 
Dear Rut,
Thanks for your reply!
In my opinion, Q=m*cp*delta_t. During the transport of cold water, there is no mass loss, so m stay constant, and assume cp is constant. Assume the thermal loss=delta_Q, then, delta_Q=m*cp*delta_t1. Because delta_Q=10%*Q, then, delta_t1=10%*delta_t.
I think the above method is reasonable.
But why the delta_t1 will cause a lot of more energy?
Thanks!
Esmi






At 2013-04-18 21:34:52,"Rut Wattanasak" <rwattanasak at emoenergy.com> wrote:

I've come across the same scenario before.  I would say Mitchell's method is a reasonable way to go.  


Additionally, the 10% loss in Temp (F) should be not equal to 10% in Thermal energy (Btu/h).  This is most likely why you see huge spike in energy consumption.  You'd have to identify the thermal property of the CHW and HW at the supply temp (in Btu/h), and determine the loss in Btu/h that is equal to 10%.  If there is no loop loss Btu/h input, you could back-calculate the reduced Btu/h in water to determine the DT.  


Rut


  




From:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Esmireta
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:25 PM
To: Mitchell Dec; BLDGSIM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] How to set the loop loss as 5 or 10%?
 
Hi Mitchell,
Thanks for your reply!
I really don't know how the DT work. Why a little DT can give a huge rise in the energy consumption?
Further, will the GBCI reviewer question the way of setting DT to represent the loop loss? Did you give any specific explanation on the DT, or just leave it without narrative?
Thanks!
Esmi






At 2013-04-18 10:08:05,"Mitchell Dec" <mdec at glumac.com> wrote:
I usually run with no loss, then adjust the delta-t until the additional consumption matches the % stated by the guideline.

Mitch Dec
Glumac
Energy Department Manager

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone



----- Reply message -----
From: "Esmireta" <e2fye2 at 163.com>
To: "BLDGSIM" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] How to set the loop loss as 5 or 10%?
Date: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:04 PM





Dear all,
As required by the district thermal energy guidance, the loop loss should be 5% for the cooling loop and 10% for the heating loop.
However, there is only DT input for the loop loss option panel. If the supply and return temperature difference is 40 F for the heating loop, the loss should be 4 F. But after I set the loss DT as 4F, the heating energy consumption will increase heavily, even 3 times of the orginal heating energy consumption.
So I wonder how it works. Does anybody have experience on it?
Thanks!
Esmi








-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20130424/f9c46ce6/attachment-0002.htm>