[Bldg-sim] Fan Power

[Aaron Smith]

Robert,

 

I was looking at the engineering manual for JCI fan-coil units,
http://bit.ly/YPtNcH.  They say "Fan Coil Units are equipped with permanent
split-capacitor (PSC) motors with three taps (High, Medium and Low) which
provides variable horsepower outputs."  So I understand the "Motor HP"
listed in the table below is output HP.  I'm not sure why the watts were
sometimes higher for higher voltages; they're generally pretty consistent
except for the size 20.

 

In another table they also list the power input for various configurations
at ARI conditions with airflow indicated.  They're generally around 0.3
W/cfm which sounds good to me but that's at 0" or 0.05" ESP which I think is
unrealistic for a ducted system.  At least the airflow is indicated and they
have the fan curves.

 

Regards,
Aaron

 

Aaron Smith, P.Eng 

M&R Engineering 

  _____  

From: RobertWichert [mailto:robert at wichert.org] 
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 12:39 PM
To: Aaron Smith
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; 'Scott Blunk'
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Fan Power

 

This data is way better than I can get, Aaron.  I don't know the CFMs these
fans move, but for me it is normal to see the smallest H.P. for the smallest
1.5 / 2 ton fan coil at 1/5 H.P.  Seeing something lower than that would be
a godsend.  Who made these fans and how much air do they move?  Typically
the fan coil manufacturers that I work with don't bother giving fan H.P.
(listed on your chart as Motor H.P.?) but rather jump right to the motor
nominal H.P. which is always higher.

But I agree with you regarding amps.  Typically the amps are much higher
than the corresponding H.P. for unknown reasons.  Startup current?
Perhaps...

I also note that your data has higher watts at higher voltages in some
cases, for unknown reasons, along with "peak" watts at 208/230 in other
cases.  I can't explain that.

Thanks for sending this, but if you can identify the manufacturer and the
product, I would be very grateful.


Cheers!





Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
===============================================

On 2/22/2013 1:51 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:

Robert,

 

I've also run into problems obtaining combined (fan and motor) efficiency
and input power, mostly with terminal units such as heat pumps and fan coil
units but also with individual fans.  What I've often done is used the watts
listed in their electrical tables.  For example, below if you take their
size 20 at high fan speed, they classify the motor HP at 1/30HP or 25W
(output power).  I've taken the subsequent columns to mean input power so
the watts at 115V is then 57W which would make the motor is 44% efficient
and that seems reasonable to me.  The listed amps don't necessarily equate
to the same wattages, they are usually higher so my only theory is that this
is the starting amps.  

 

I'd be interested in finding out what other have to say.  I have tried
talking to some local equipment reps without any luck.

 

Aaron

 



 

 

Aaron Smith, P.Eng 

M&R Engineering 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: RobertWichert [mailto:robert at wichert.org] 
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:25 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; Scott Blunk
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Fan Power

 

This is a DOE-2 question, I think, but I am applying it to EnergyPro.  I 

am asking here in the hopes that some will have a more in-depth 

knowledge of DOE-2 and how it relates to fan power.  I am also hoping 

that some here will be able to reflect on the theory and application of 

fan power and energy as it relates to actual systems and modeling.

 

When inputting indoor fan power, I have used many sources for the fan 

power.  I sometimes use the motor nameplate, which I believe is too high 

in every case.

 

I also sometimes use FLA or RLA, which I also do not believe are 

accurate, but sometimes give more realistic numbers.

 

Some manufacturers give fan BHP at design conditions, which I find to be 

very helpful, but not everybody is that helpful.

 

It has been suggested that I calculate the fan BHP using the theoretical 

formula *** Fan BHP = (cfm x static press "w.c.) / (6356 x fan 

efficiency) *** and then use a conservative fan efficiency (maybe 50%) 

for a good number.  This gives a much lower value than the other 

methods, and I am trying to see if there is anything wrong with this 

approach.

 

As I understand the usage, indoor fan power is divided by motor and 

drive efficiency to come up with fan energy.  So the fan BHP is the 

starting point.  Having this too high drives up fan energy, sometimes 

dramatically, and can influence the proposed case quite a bit if there 

are lots of fans, even small fans.

 

 

Any thoughts on this approach would be very much appreciated.

 

 

 

-- 

Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C

+1 916 966 9060

FAX +1 916 966 9068

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

===============================================

 

 

 

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