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Thu May 8 09:17:00 PDT 2014


simulation welll, but waterside poorly.  TAS can approximate water-side =
plant using Report scripts.  If you are just after indicative plant =
energy use and relative savings then these tools are sufficient, but =
depending on your application, the waterside simulationmay be very =
important in which case proceed with caution.

If you are just trying to rough out the potential energy savings for a =
mixed moe system then running hourly reports from DOE-2 and subtracting =
plant energy use for those hours where NV appears appropriate will give =
you the feasibility estimate.  A filter of hours to exclude can be =
worked up from typical internal or space sensible loads, average airflow =
(stack and wind driven) based on simplified calcs, and desired space =
temperatures ...

Regards,
Graham
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Brian Thornton=20
  To: BLDG-SIM at gard.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:06 AM
  Subject: [BLDG-SIM] natural ventilation analysis tools


  Does anyone have experience with CFD, and non-CFD analysis tools for =
design and energy analysis of natural ventilation?=20

  Tas is one I have heard a lot about lately.=20

  Can anyone describe their experience in learning, using, providing =
usable and correct results, and extrapolating results to annual energy =
usage/savings?

  Any other software that provides at least some 2-D or 3-D CFD, and =
hourly thermal calculations for natural ventilation?=20

  Thanks,=20

  Brian =20

  Brian Thornton, P.E.=20
  Lead Engineer, Energy Services=20
  GLUMAC=20
  I N T E R N A T I O N A L=20
  320 SW Washington, Suite 200=20
  Portland, Oregon 97204=20

  503.227.5280  Phone=20
  503.274.7674  Fax=20

  www.Glumac.com=20

  The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be =
legally privileged.  It is intended solely for the addressee.  Access to =
this email by anyone else is unauthorized.  If you are not the intended =
recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in =
response to this email is prohibited and may be unlawful.  Because =
e-mail can be altered electronically, the integrity of this =
communication cannot be guaranteed.


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>natural ventilation analysis tools</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To add to Jon Hand's comments.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have used Apache (IES) successfully =
for the=20
assessment / design of natural ventilation systems.  While I =
am not an=20
expert with TAS, it appears to offer very similar functionality to IES =
based on=20
my limited experience with it.  Both offer multi-zone bulk =
airflow=20
modelling combined with the dynamic thermal simulation.  CFD is =
typically=20
used to gain a greater insight into local air temperatures and airflow =
at one=20
point in time where bulk airflow provides a zone average =
otherwise. =20
Increasingly some consultants are using CFD for transient =
simulations.  The=20
Swiss Reinsurance building in London (The Ghurkin) I believe was =
designed using=20
CFD exclusively by Hilson-Moran.  While some CFD packages are now =
claiming=20
to account for the transient radiant loads, I am doubtful whether this =
would=20
provide as useful of a tool as bulk airflow modelling - this =
will change=20
...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In terms of useful and correct results, =
there has=20
been BESTesting and some validation of these tools from real =
buildings.  In=20
my experience you need to be very careful to declare results in absolute =

terms.  There are so many variables beyond our control and the =
biggest one,=20
the weather, drives when natural ventilation systems are useful.  A =

sensitivity study of key variables to understand the risks and thus =
where better=20
information and additional design is needed to be confident, is=20
essential.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From an energy point of view, both TAS =
and Apache=20
handle airside plant simulation welll, but waterside poorly.  TAS =
can=20
approximate water-side plant using Report scripts.  If you are just =
after=20
indicative plant energy use and relative savings then these tools are=20
sufficient, but depending on your application, the waterside =
simulationmay be=20
very important in which case proceed with caution.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you are just trying to rough out the =
potential=20
energy savings for a mixed moe system then running hourly reports from =
DOE-2 and=20
subtracting plant energy use for those hours where NV appears =
appropriate will=20
give you the feasibility estimate.  A filter of hours to exclude =
can be=20
worked up from typical internal or space sensible loads, average airflow =
(stack=20
and wind driven) based on simplified calcs, and desired space =
temperatures=20
...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Graham</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dbthornton at glumac.com =
href=3D"mailto:bthornton at glumac.com">Brian=20
  Thornton</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DBLDG-SIM at gard.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:BLDG-SIM at gard.com">BLDG-SIM at gard.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 22, =
2003 9:06=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] natural =
ventilation=20
  analysis tools</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Does anyone have experience with CFD, =
and non-CFD=20
  analysis tools for design and energy analysis of natural =
ventilation?</FONT>=20
  </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tas is one I have heard a lot about =
lately.</FONT>=20
  </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone describe their experience in =
learning,=20
  using, providing usable and correct results, and extrapolating results =
to=20
  annual energy usage/savings?</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any other software that provides at =
least some 2-D=20
  or 3-D CFD, and hourly thermal calculations for natural =
ventilation?</FONT>=20
  </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brian  </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brian Thornton, P.E.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Lead Engineer, Energy Services</FONT> <BR><U><B><I><FONT=20
  face=3D"Arial Black" color=3D#000000 =
size=3D5>GLUMAC</FONT></I></B></U> <BR><B><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D1>I N T E R N A T I O N A =
L</FONT></B> <BR><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>320 SW Washington, Suite 200</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Portland, Oregon 97204</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>503.227.5280  Phone =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>503.274.7674  Fax</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>www.Glumac.com</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The information in this Internet e-mail =
is=20
  confidential and may be legally privileged.  It is intended =
solely for=20
  the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is=20
  unauthorized.  If you are not the intended recipient, any =
disclosure,=20
  copying, distribution or any action taken in response to this email is =

  prohibited and may be unlawful.  Because e-mail can be altered=20
  electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be=20
  guaranteed.</FONT></P><PRE>
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You received this e-mail because you are subscribed=20
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