[Bldg-sim] Snow melt energy estimation?

[Ellen Franconi]

Hi Bill,
I looked into a snowmelt system for a fire station project in Aspen years
ago. I came across several papers about the use of geothermal heat pipe
systems for snow melt that have been applied in several installations -
particularly in Japan. Here's one link to a paper that covers the topic
pretty well.
Best regards,
Ellen

http://www.osti.gov/geothermal/servlets/purl/895225-RlOmlU/895225.pdf


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Jones, Christopher <cjones at halsall.com>wrote:

>  David,
>
> Do you have an updated URL for HVAC.okstate.edu?  The link below doesn’t
> seem to work.
>
>
>
> *Christopher Jones**,* P.Eng.
> Tel: 416.644.4226 • Toll Free: 1.888.425.7255 x 527
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *David Eldridge
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 5:26 PM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Snow melt energy estimation?
>
>
>
> Nick, you might be interested in some of the research posted at
> HVAC.okstate.edu about controls for ground-coupled snowmelt systems, in
> this case highway bridges in Oklahoma, including some monitored data.
>
> DSE Mobile
>
>
> On May 19, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Nick Caton" <ncaton at smithboucher.com> wrote:
>
>  I would simply add/caution from what I’ve seen that you may encounter a
> wide range of answers for the same system/location based on controls
> alone.  If at all possible, you might try to get your hands on the system
> specification and/or submittals first, if available.
>
>
>
> Controls can be as simple (wasteful/dummyproof) as a timer/relay system,
> operating broadly for the cold “season.”  Controls can also be much more
> sophisticated (efficient/more-parts-to-break), entailing separate drybulb
> and moisture sensors in the slab and/or on the building to ensure operation
> only when the pavement is sub-freezing AND there’s precipitation.  There
> also exists cycling controls to only run for a few minutes at a time, for
> scenarios when 100% on is much more than enough.
>
>
>
> From a modeling perspective, things only get more complicated if you
> aren’t talking electric mats/cabling.  Hydronic snowmelt systems,
> particularly tied into other heat rejection systems (towers/ground
> fields*), are a whole ‘nother ball of wax as far as modeling challenges go,
> but are definitely of interest for a “green” focused project, particularly
> if you could nab credit in a LEED environment for re-using such heat
> productively over an electric system (sounds like a shaky proposition
> though as I consider/type this).
>
>
>
> Hope that doesn’t complicate your query any further than a dedicated
> Handbook chapter on the subject!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> * Million dollar idea?:  I wonder if anyone has explored how or if
> hydronic snowmelt systems tied to ground well loops could be productively
> interfaced with each other to automatically offset the annual ground heat
> creep over time in heating-dominant climates like ours…
>
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
>
>
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER
>
>
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>
> olathe, ks 66061
>
> direct 913.344.0036
>
> fax 913.345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bishop, Bill
> *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 10:12 AM
> *To:* Chris Baker; cjones at halsall.com; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Snow melt energy estimation?
>
>
>
> Wow! An entire 20-page chapter on Snow Melting and Freeze Protection.
> Thanks Chris, and Christopher! And thanks, ASHRAE.
>
> ~Bill
>
>
>
> <image003.png>
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Baker [mailto:chrisb at twgi.com <chrisb at twgi.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 10:41 AM
> *To:* Bishop, Bill; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: Snow melt energy estimation?
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> 2011 ASHRAE Handbook—HVAC Applications section 51 walks through a method
> that estimates energy consumption. If it’s not in the ASHRAE handbook, I’m
> pretty sure you don’t need to know it.
>
>
>
> Chris Baker
>
> 952-938-1588
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bishop, Bill
> *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 9:35 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Snow melt energy estimation?
>
>
>
> Up here in the Empire State, building designs sometimes incorporate
> heating systems in the exterior walkways for melting snow (for safety, but
> also so people don’t have to go outside and shovel the snow). Even “green”
> buildings are not immune to this design feature. Don’t get me started.
>
> Anyway, does anyone have a handy calculator for estimating the energy for
> this process load? I would think you could get a rough estimate just based
> on annual snowfall for a given location. If you have the time and feel like
> creating one on your own, I will reward you with a custom popart eQUEST
> model in the shape of a subject of your choosing.
>
>
>
> ~Bill
>
>
>
> *William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP **|** Pathfinder Engineers
> & Architects LLP*
>
> *Senior Energy Engineer*
>
>   <image004.jpg>
>
>
>
> 134 South Fitzhugh Street                 Rochester, NY 14608
>
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-- 
Ellen Franconi, PhD, LEED AP, BEMP
Senior Scientist

Rocky Mountain Institute
1820 Folsom Street
Boulder, CO 80302
303.567.8609 (Desk)
303.245.7213 (Fax)

Creating a clean, prosperous and secure energy future

http://www.rmi.org
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