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Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Window5 data file
Linda, et al.
Thanks. Looks like I'll have to do an experiment on the Unentered for the two cases with two zones...but for now:
I used explicit OtherZoneSurface definiitons in the current case, and there seems to be a problem with my window5 files. I created normal and reversed-layers window5 windows and specified them properly for the interior zone window and its facing object. But I'm getting very little Zone Diff Solar from Interior Windows compared to a similar model with its interior window/window_reversed pair defined as an E+ construction.
Any ideas? A few questions:
- glass has two surfaces, sometimes one of them has a loE coating. Shoudl this be reveresed also, as it needs to be to get proper performance? If it is reversed in Window5, doesn't that mean that it is actually a different material layer with different properties, and therefore it is no longer a reverse of the original window construction?
- Is there a way to see the report for interior windows, and therefore the performance numbers that E+ calcs? They don't show up in the Table report on Envelope Summary/Fenestration report, only exterior windows appear.
r3
----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Lawrie
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Window5 data file
You use an UnenteredOtherZoneSurface as a shortcut to not having to
specify the adjacent zone surfaces. It does not fake anything,
merely calculates the proper position of the adjacent surface and
creates one plus adding the constructions (reversed layers) as needed.
The program generates the necessary geometry in a mirrored way from
the original and generates the proper constructions if necessary.
If you have an OtherZoneSurface with adjacent surfaces described,
then you shouldn't enter UnenteredOtherZoneSurface in the first zone
because you already have them. Then, you enter the proper surface
tags as the "outside environment"
As far as calculations there is no difference to entering the
"otherzonesurface" or using the shortcut. (ref: engineering manual
for details on the interzone heat transfer calculations".
Which has little or nothing to do with entering a Window5 data file
window in place for an interior window -- this works and the program
reverses the construction appropriately.
Linda
At 07:07 PM 5/2/2008, David Scheer - L+U wrote:
>Linda.
>
>The documentation is a little short on explanations about how
>UnenteredOtherZoneSurface is treated. Let me see if I assume correctly:
>
>If an 'adjacent' ( I understand that this is geometrically
>meaningless for the calculations) zone surface or subsurface is
>specified as OutsideFaceEnvironmentObject for a surface, I assume
>that the outside face condition of the surface in question includes
>adjacent object material energy balance, including radiative
>effects, etc, as well as zone temperature. Is this simplified to
>only include zone temperature if the other zone surface is
>'Unentered' and therefore generated as a proxy surface in the
>specified zone, not actual geometry in the adjacent zone? ie, is
>this condition of this proxy surface also calculated in the adjacent
>zone? And if so, what happens to the actual adjacent surface, if it
>is modeled in teh adjacent zone?
>
>If Unentered is specified, and real adjacent surfaces and
>subsurfaces exist in the adjacent zone, how should these be
>treated? Should these also have an Unentered object for their
>outside face environment, or can the actual adjacent surface be used?
>
>I assume that there is no concrete calculation of conservation of
>energy between two zones with adjacent surfaces, but that it works
>out pretty well due to the calculatino method. I assume that the
>outside face environment object is a way to simply define energy
>flows in/out of the surface through the outside face through the
>convection algorithm.
>
>With that in mind, for an internal window with potential solar
>gains, it would seem important that the position and orientation of
>the outside face environment object of the interior zone surface in
>relation to the exterior window is very important (even though only
>diffuse solar enters the interior zone, it is dependent on the
>directionality of solar through the exterior zone). That said, I
>can see how an Unentered surface would take care of the exterior
>zone surface outside face condition, but would not work well for the
>interior zone window surface.
>
>Afraid of faking out the software and losing energy.
>
>Phew!
>
>r3
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Linda Lawrie
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Window5 data file
>
>
> Don't forget... there is the UnenteredOtherZoneSurface that will take
> care of this instance if the base interior surface is used. Read
> about them in the Input Output Reference. EnergyPlus does the job of
> "reversing" the layers.
>
> Linda
>
> At 12:39 PM 5/2/2008, Rob Hitchcock wrote:
> >No warnings are generated for the case where internal windows (or other
> >surfaces) do not have reversed layer order for opposite sides of the
> >surface. However, layer orders should be reversed for interzone
> >windows, whether they are input directly in the IDF or by import from a
> >WINDOW5 data file. Of course if the window construction only consists
> >of a single layer, or if the layers are symmetrical, this does not matter.
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >coolshadow10a wrote:
> >
> > > Is it possible, and/or what should I look out for, to use a Window5
> > > data file construction for an internal window? Primarily, do I need
> > > to build another version of the window with the layers reversed for
> > > the facing subobject in the adjacent zone? The file runs with no
> > > warnings associated with the adjacency, just wondering if I'm being
> > > misled, and if solar through the interior window is still treated
> > > 'correctly'.
> > >
> > > r3
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
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>Attachments are not allowed -- please post any files to the
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