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[EnergyPlus_Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage results
Dear Dimos,
Tell me if this is correct regarding HVAC:
Zone 1405 -- no heating, no air conditioning, ventilation, steam for
process load, gas oven with two fans
Zone 1416 -- furnace with gas heating, DX cooling
Zone 1441 -- furnace with electric heating, DX cooling
Miscellaneous -- no chiller, no hot water boiler, no cooling tower
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, D T <ellinas.1984@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the suggestions from you and Richard. I modeled this
facility using DesignBuilder and imported the idf file into
EnergyPlus. In the model, I have DX cooling along with split
system/gas furnace for heating in the office area. The largest zone
(zone 1405) has no heating. It only uses mechanical ventilation and
outside air. The hot water boiler was added in there from
DesignBuilder for the gas furnace in the office area. If I'm correct,
I don't think that zone I designated as the offices is being heated.
>
> I deleted the Furnace:heating object because I don't need to
heat zone 1405 with the either the steam boiler nor the hot water
boiler. Rather, the steam from the steam boiler is being used for a
process in the zone.
>
> I tried connecting the appropriate branches and/or coils to the
steam boiler, but I'm still having problems. Though the errors aren't
fatal, I am still not getting gas usage values from the steam boiler.
I'm having problems with node connections for the steam boilers.
Something is not correct and, despite the error messages, I still
cannot figure out how to correct it.
>
> Any help or suggestions as to how I can fix this problem are
appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Dimos
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 8/6/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@...> wrote:
>
> From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@...>
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage results
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:05 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Dimos,
>
> In addition to Richard's comments, I suggest....
>
> I'm not sure why you are trying to use both hot water AND steam
> boilers on the same building, but consider these suggestions. ..
>
> 1) Use a fan coil with hot water heating for Zone 1405 and delete the
> furnace. You can get both heating and cooling from that single object
> and ignore the Steam Boiler completely.
> 2) If you need to provide outdoor air to zone 1405, and it must use
> heat from the boiler, you'll have to abandon the Furnace and instead
> create an air handler with OA mixer, cooling coil and heating coil.
> The Branch will look something like...
>
> BRANCH,
> Branch_AirLoop_ AH1, !- Branch Name
> Autosize, !- Maximum Branch Flow Rate {m3/s}
> OUTSIDE AIR SYSTEM, !- Comp1 Type
> OASystem_AH1, !- Comp1 Name
> NodeOut_RFan_ AH1, !- Comp1 Inlet Node Name
> NodeOut_MA_AH1, !- Comp1 Outlet Node Name
> PASSIVE, !- Comp1 Branch Control Type
> DXSystem:AirLoop, !- Comp2 Type
> DXAirLoop_AH1, !- Comp2 Name
> NodeOut_MA_AH1, !- Comp2 Inlet Node Name
> NodeOut_ClgCoilAir_ AH1, !- Comp2 Outlet Node Name
> PASSIVE, !- Comp2 Branch Control Type
> FAN:SIMPLE:VARIABLE VOLUME, !- Comp3 Type
> SFan_AH1, !- Comp3 Name
> NodeOut_ClgCoilAir_ AH1, !- Comp3 Inlet Node Name
> NodeOut_SF_AH1, !- Comp3 Outlet Node Name
> ACTIVE, !- Comp3 Branch Control Type
> COIL:WATER:SIMPLEHE ATING,!- Comp4 Type
> HtgCoil_AH1, !- Comp4 Name
> NodeOut_SF_AH1, !- Comp4 Inlet Node Name
> NodeOut_Air_ AH1, !- Comp4 Outlet Node Name
> PASSIVE; !- Comp4 Branch Control Type
> Of course, you will need Splitter, Mixer, Direct Air and a variety of
> other objects to make the Air Loop complete; Don't forget those! It
> will become very similar to your other two zones.
>
> 3) Your Steam Boiler has only one branch, named "1405 branch". At the
> least, if you keep the Steam Boiler, you will need an inlet and outlet
> branch, similar to what you've created for the Hot water Boiler.
>
> 4) The Steam Boiler now has inlet and outlet nodes that look
> incorrect. They appear to be from an air loop....
>
> That's all for now.1
>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions. I created a Coil:Steam:AirHeati ng object
> and connected it to the Furnace:HeatOnly object. However, I am having
> problems connecting the Furnace to the boiler. I read the error
> messages I am getting and I still cannot figure out how to fix the
> problem. Apparently I am having a problem with the branches and nodes.
> I created an AirLoop for the steam boiler. More or less, I am having
> trouble figuring out how to correct my errors. Any help or suggestions
> are appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dimos
> >
> > P.S. I've uploaded my file.
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/4/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> >
> > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
results
> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 9:07 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dimos,
> >
> > I took a look at the new file, and it appears that:
> >
> > 1) You have two air loops. Each of those has a Furnace:HeatCool. One
> > of the furnaces has a gas heating coil and the other has an electric
> coil.
> > 2) You have a "Boiler:simple" (which is a hot water boiler) and a
> > "Boiler:Steam" , but the only thing using either one is the Fan
Coil in
> > Zone 1405.
> > 3) Therefore, neither of the Furnaces will use any energy from the
> > Boilers because they're not using hot water or steam coils. In
> > addition, the Boiler:Steam will not use any gas, because it has
> > nothing connected to it.
> > 4) If the Fan Coil has any load, the Boiler:Simple will provide it ...
> > as long as the Boiler is available and the Fan coil operates.
> > 5) Finally, you have created a Gas Equipment object called "Boiler",
> > but it is not connected in any way with the heating loads, and
> > therefore is not useful to you.
> > 6) I think you should:
> > a) Delete the "Boiler" Gas Equipment object. This is not the correct
> > approach for a heating load.
> > b) Connect the heating devices (Fan Coil or Furnace, whichever is
> > proper) to the Boiler:Simple or Boiler:Steam. If you use
> > Boiler:Steam, you'll need a Coil:Steam:AirHeati ng object in the
> > Furnace or Fan Coil.
> > c) Check the Fan Coil operation and confirm that it operates and also
> > has some heating to perform. Also check to see that the Boiler:Simple
> > is operating when you need it.
> >
> > That's all I can figure out right now. Good luck!
> >
> > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help. I modeled the ovens using the GAS EQUIPMENT
> > object as well as the boiler. I did this in order to get monthly gas
> > usage values for one entire year for the entire faclity. They closely
> > matched the faclity's gas bills. For the boiler, I used the GAS
> > EQUIPMENT object because I had some problems using the STEAM BOILER
> > object in EnergyPlus.
> > >
> > > I specified all the inputs in the STEAM BOILER object yet I don't
> > get any monthly output results. I do not know why I am not getting any
> > values for the steam boiler. Do you know why this could be happening?
> > Also, I have yet to specify the fans for the ovens. But, I would like
> > to ask, under which object in the Fans category of EnergyPlus would I
> > use to model the fans?
> > >
> > > Thanks again for the help. I will upload my idf file.
> > >
> > > Dimos
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
> results
> > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:26 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Dimos,
> > >
> > > Here's my opinion:
> > > 1) Boiler:Steam sounds like a good choice. In my experience, the
part
> > > load ratio coefficients make a big difference, so I encourage you to
> > > take some time to get realistic values of these coefficients for the
> > > boiler.
> > > 2) The Gas Equipment object looks suitable for an oven. Assuming
that
> > > this is an oven type that is used for drying products or curing
paint,
> > > the radiant fraction will be 0, the latent fraction will be 0,
and the
> > > fraction lost will be about .20 - .25. A bakery oven will use
similar
> > > fractions. You will have to determine the schedule of operation and
> > > load.
> > > 3) Finally, ovens often have a fan for the burner, another for
exhaust
> > > and sometimes a fan for circulation; the energy for these fans
should
> > > be included in your model.
> > >
> > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the suggestion. Since I have never modeled boilers nor
> > > ovens in EnergyPlus, could you perhaps steer me toward the objects I
> > > would need to work with. I know that for boilers there are several
> > > objects. The plant I am modeling uses boilers for steam
generation, so
> > > would I need to use the steam boiler option? Also, for the
ovens, what
> > > object do you suggest I work with?
> > > >
> > > > Assuming I get these to work properly after modeling them, how
would
> > > I get them to report in the ABUPS report?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for helping me with this.
> > > >
> > > > Dimos
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
> > results
> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 8:08 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > >
> > > > The Boiler and ovens will operate on different schedules with
> > > > different loads and will have different part load efficiencies.
> > > > Therefore, I think you should model them separately, not as a
> combined
> > > > object.
> > > >
> > > > I have not modeled ovens before in E+, but I have applied them in
> > > > buildings. A typical oven will lose heat to the zone it occupies
> > > > through the oven walls, so you'll need to know the insulation
> value of
> > > > those walls and calculate that rate. The rate will vary as the
oven
> > > > warms up and cools down, so you will need to know the operating
> > > schedule.
> > > >
> > > > An oven also loses heat through the stack. That is the amount
which
> > > > should be assigned to the "Fraction Lost" field.
> > > >
> > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T
<ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the help. I now understand why I'm not getting
values.
> > > > However, my ultimate goal is to obtain monthly gas usage
values for
> > > > one boiler and 4 ovens for the facility I am modeling. Since I'm
> > > > trying to model a boiler and 4 ovens, could I just simply
> specify the
> > > > total power input from the boiler and ovens (in watts) under
the GAS
> > > > EQUIPMENT object? When I did that, I got an error in my
> simulation. Or
> > > > do I need to use the boiler object and something else for the
ovens?
> > > > I'm still struggling with trying to get gas usage values for
> this part
> > > > of my work. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > Dimos
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas
usage
> > > results
> > > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 12:48 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > > >
> > > > > I took a look at your file and I think your problem is this:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) You have an ELECTRIC heating coil in the furnace.
> > > > > 2) Since the Furnace is the only heating object, and its
coil uses
> > > > > electricity, there is no load for the Boiler:Steam.
> > > > > 3) Therefore, there is no gas consumption.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, "ellinas.1984"
> > > > > <ellinas.1984@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello group,
> > > > > > The facility I am modeling has two boilers. I specified one of
> > them
> > > > > > under the boiler object in EnergyPlus just to see how it would
> > > run. I
> > > > > > also specified the gas rate schedule. However, when I run the
> > > > > > simulation and view the results, I get values of zero for the
> > > monthly
> > > > > > gas usages. Unlike the results from the electricity rate
> schedule
> > > > that
> > > > > > I specified, where it shows the monthly usage in the results,
> > I get
> > > > > > nothing for the gas. Is there anyone out there that knows
how to
> > > help
> > > > > > me solve this problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > Dimos
> > > > > >
> > > > > > p.s. I uploaded my idf file. It is bakery3.idf with the
subtitle
> > > "gas
> > > > > > rate usage values" under the problem submittal folder.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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