This is precisely I wanted to point to the users.
If you have a real system, try to find out all the component used in the system and then to model them with EPlus. You cannot simply follow a fixed template.
For the ASHRAE base line use the EPlus template. I do not know what is Ashrae appendix G, and was told that it is the same as the EPlus VAV with reheat model. There is no problem to model the ASHRAE guide line VAV model with EPlus.
They are two separate cases.
Then you model the real system which is not the same as the EPlus template VAV reheat model. Of couse, if you do not have the components in the real system, you cannot simulate with any program.
You said, "The AHU has a variable speed fan (VSD) and in the zones there are VAV boxes without reheat." This is only part of the system. There are other components such as return air sensor, pressure sensure, and duct air temperature sensors, etc to be specified. These can be simulated by the setpoint and control managers in EPlus, with the schedules of operation, if your control program is also known..
This is a new model and requires careful consideration of all the input requirement to EPlus.
"I really don't understand how there is no simpler solution, when this is a very common HVAC configuration." In fact, you have a customized system which requires special consideration.
If it is really a common one, you would have all the information available for input to EPlus IDF.
"Due to the limitations of Energyplus VAV systems, which seem to require availability schedules to prevent the coils from opposing each other, it seems that the only solution is go for Energyplus EMS"
This is your impression. Without the IDF, I cannot tell what you have as input to the EPlus simulation.
The coils in the EPlus VAV system never oppose each other inside the AHU. The reheat heater is added ther by your choice. It is needed because your mode of operation is to over cool and the reheat.
The sources used to feed the AHU coils should not be an issue. You can use District Cooling and heating first and then substitute with the real system. DX freezing prevention should be in your real system.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: ecoeficiente@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:50:07 +0000
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Heating/Setpoint Controller
__._,_.___
Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
http://energyplus.helpserve.com or send a message to energyplus-support@xxxxxxxx
The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
http://www.energyplus.gov
The group web site is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
Attachments are currently allowed but be mindful that not everyone has a high speed connection. Limit attachments to small files.
EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable. Open EPlusMainMenu.pdf under the Documentation link and press the "search" button.
![]()
__,_._,___
If you have a real system, try to find out all the component used in the system and then to model them with EPlus. You cannot simply follow a fixed template.
For the ASHRAE base line use the EPlus template. I do not know what is Ashrae appendix G, and was told that it is the same as the EPlus VAV with reheat model. There is no problem to model the ASHRAE guide line VAV model with EPlus.
They are two separate cases.
Then you model the real system which is not the same as the EPlus template VAV reheat model. Of couse, if you do not have the components in the real system, you cannot simulate with any program.
You said, "The AHU has a variable speed fan (VSD) and in the zones there are VAV boxes without reheat." This is only part of the system. There are other components such as return air sensor, pressure sensure, and duct air temperature sensors, etc to be specified. These can be simulated by the setpoint and control managers in EPlus, with the schedules of operation, if your control program is also known..
This is a new model and requires careful consideration of all the input requirement to EPlus.
"I really don't understand how there is no simpler solution, when this is a very common HVAC configuration." In fact, you have a customized system which requires special consideration.
If it is really a common one, you would have all the information available for input to EPlus IDF.
"Due to the limitations of Energyplus VAV systems, which seem to require availability schedules to prevent the coils from opposing each other, it seems that the only solution is go for Energyplus EMS"
This is your impression. Without the IDF, I cannot tell what you have as input to the EPlus simulation.
The coils in the EPlus VAV system never oppose each other inside the AHU. The reheat heater is added ther by your choice. It is needed because your mode of operation is to over cool and the reheat.
The sources used to feed the AHU coils should not be an issue. You can use District Cooling and heating first and then substitute with the real system. DX freezing prevention should be in your real system.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: ecoeficiente@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:50:07 +0000
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Heating/Setpoint Controller
Hi,
Thanks for your answer. Let me explain better my situation.
I am simulating a real installation. The part I am interested has a geothermal heatpump which feeds (through two buffer tanks)the coils (heating and cooling) of the AHU. The AHU has a variable speed fan (VSD)and in the zones there are VAV boxes without reheat.
I am not really sure this will work right, I suppose it will depend in the central control system (I still do not have info about how it is programmed). The fact is that I have to develop the model for a LEED certification (Ashrae appendix G) and I am trying to build the model as exact as possible.
Due to the limitations of Energyplus VAV systems, which seem to require availability schedules to prevent the coils from opposing each other, it seems that the only solution is go for Energyplus EMS.
I really don't understand how there is no simpler solution, when this is a very common HVAC configuration.
Regards,
Germán.
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, YuanLu Li <yli006@...> wrote:
>
>
> Since you are commenting on my reply to another user, I would like to know what you are doing with VAV. As far as I know, there are not many HVAC system running VAV. (or using variable speed motors) Modular system is common. VSD may be low cost now, but the controlling algorithm is not easily applied. VAV is not new. I was involve with one system in 2007. It was more complex than the system simulated with EPlus. VAV in the system simply means that you are using a variable speed fan. How this is controlled make a lot of difference in perfornance In EPlus, it is simply the sum of all the VAV dampler air volume. When the VAV damper is at maximum, the problem is set-point not met. When the VAV dampler is at the minimum set-point, the reheat heater comes on, so that you have cooling and heating at the same time. . If you lower the minimum damper position to the desined value 0.3, the DX coil may freeze. Without VAV and fixed damper with zone temperature control, the DX coil may be turned off when the temperature is low and cooling is not needed. Set-point manager is to free up the thermostat control of individual zones. If you have zone thermostat to control the common system equpment, the DX coil is turned off when the cooling reached the desired zone thermostat set point value. If you do not have thermostat control in each zone connected to the same AHY, the configuration is the master/slave temperature control of the zones. No set-point manager is required. This is how the EPlus worked up to version 4.0. The examples, have seen been "up-dated".What I have discribed in my last reply was to use a real system for comparison. EPlus is simulating the variable damper with reheat heater as the equipment for the VAV AHU. For this configuration you may run into the problems listed in the paragraph above. A real system has more controls which are not simulated. If you know how to use EMS for these extra controlls, go head. If not, just leave the VAV alone and use it with care. A simple work around is to cool the return air by increasing the fan speed, so that the over cool situation can be minimized. I understand this is not what the user want to do to satisfy the ASHRAE guide line.If you remove the reheat and set the minimum fan speed low, the DX coil would freeae. Therefore, the set-point temperature need to be raised to 16 to 18°C so that the fan speed at 0.3 would not be too cold. If the internal added heat load is low, you may rase the set-point temperature to 2°C below the zone thermostat set-point. Individual zone temperature control can be achieved with other configurations. (Zone fan coil system)
> Window units, etc.
> Dr. Li
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> From: ecoeficiente@...
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:30:05 +0000
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Heating/Setpoint Controller
>
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> Hi, I am stuck on the same problem.
>
> Is Energyplus EMS the only way? Or which 4-5 variables can you adjust?
>
> Also, what do you mean by not using VAV? I am using an AHU and VAV or not, there is the same problem, since you have to use a Setpoint manager for the coils.
>
>
>
> It is a very common HVAC configuration, which I cannot find how to configure...
>
> Any idea?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Germán.
>
>
>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, YuanLu Li <yli006@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If yu do not have pre-heat and reheat and there is not need to use VAV, you should not model using VAV. The zone thermostat should be used to control the cooling and heating coils directly. When you use VAV dampler, the theremostat controls the damper which change the flow rate which results in different zone temperature. The process is more complex. You need to adjust four or five variables to work together to make the system work. ============================In a real VAV system, a computer control system is used to control the fan speed. Pressure sensors are also required. Duct temperature, diffuser temperature and room temperature are modified to make the desission on whaat to do. Dr. Li
>
> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > From: matthew.sverre.anderson@
>
> > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:13:58 +0000
>
> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Heating/Setpoint Controller
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> > Hello Everybody, I have a question that likely (or at least hopefully!) has an easy answer and I am simply too foolish to know it.
>
> >
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> >
>
> >
>
> > So I have a building which I modeled as a VAV with no reheat, and no preheat coil. I want the coils to operate as needed and simply ignore any frost warnings. However, I currently have no schedule for either since there will be many times during the fall/spring where we might need to heat/cool during the same day or during the week.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The problem I am currently having is that the heating/cooling coils are operating year long at the same time. I want the HC to operate when the building needs heating, the CC to operate when the building needs cooling (neither to operate at the same time). Am I thinking about this incorrectly?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Also is there a way to implement a dead band above/below the set point where the system is "satisfied" to prevent the system from "slamming" on/off?
>
> >
>
Thanks for your answer. Let me explain better my situation.
I am simulating a real installation. The part I am interested has a geothermal heatpump which feeds (through two buffer tanks)the coils (heating and cooling) of the AHU. The AHU has a variable speed fan (VSD)and in the zones there are VAV boxes without reheat.
I am not really sure this will work right, I suppose it will depend in the central control system (I still do not have info about how it is programmed). The fact is that I have to develop the model for a LEED certification (Ashrae appendix G) and I am trying to build the model as exact as possible.
Due to the limitations of Energyplus VAV systems, which seem to require availability schedules to prevent the coils from opposing each other, it seems that the only solution is go for Energyplus EMS.
I really don't understand how there is no simpler solution, when this is a very common HVAC configuration.
Regards,
Germán.
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, YuanLu Li <yli006@...> wrote:
>
>
> Since you are commenting on my reply to another user, I would like to know what you are doing with VAV. As far as I know, there are not many HVAC system running VAV. (or using variable speed motors) Modular system is common. VSD may be low cost now, but the controlling algorithm is not easily applied. VAV is not new. I was involve with one system in 2007. It was more complex than the system simulated with EPlus. VAV in the system simply means that you are using a variable speed fan. How this is controlled make a lot of difference in perfornance In EPlus, it is simply the sum of all the VAV dampler air volume. When the VAV damper is at maximum, the problem is set-point not met. When the VAV dampler is at the minimum set-point, the reheat heater comes on, so that you have cooling and heating at the same time. . If you lower the minimum damper position to the desined value 0.3, the DX coil may freeze. Without VAV and fixed damper with zone temperature control, the DX coil may be turned off when the temperature is low and cooling is not needed. Set-point manager is to free up the thermostat control of individual zones. If you have zone thermostat to control the common system equpment, the DX coil is turned off when the cooling reached the desired zone thermostat set point value. If you do not have thermostat control in each zone connected to the same AHY, the configuration is the master/slave temperature control of the zones. No set-point manager is required. This is how the EPlus worked up to version 4.0. The examples, have seen been "up-dated".What I have discribed in my last reply was to use a real system for comparison. EPlus is simulating the variable damper with reheat heater as the equipment for the VAV AHU. For this configuration you may run into the problems listed in the paragraph above. A real system has more controls which are not simulated. If you know how to use EMS for these extra controlls, go head. If not, just leave the VAV alone and use it with care. A simple work around is to cool the return air by increasing the fan speed, so that the over cool situation can be minimized. I understand this is not what the user want to do to satisfy the ASHRAE guide line.If you remove the reheat and set the minimum fan speed low, the DX coil would freeae. Therefore, the set-point temperature need to be raised to 16 to 18°C so that the fan speed at 0.3 would not be too cold. If the internal added heat load is low, you may rase the set-point temperature to 2°C below the zone thermostat set-point. Individual zone temperature control can be achieved with other configurations. (Zone fan coil system)
> Window units, etc.
> Dr. Li
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> From: ecoeficiente@...
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:30:05 +0000
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Heating/Setpoint Controller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, I am stuck on the same problem.
>
> Is Energyplus EMS the only way? Or which 4-5 variables can you adjust?
>
> Also, what do you mean by not using VAV? I am using an AHU and VAV or not, there is the same problem, since you have to use a Setpoint manager for the coils.
>
>
>
> It is a very common HVAC configuration, which I cannot find how to configure...
>
> Any idea?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Germán.
>
>
>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, YuanLu Li <yli006@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If yu do not have pre-heat and reheat and there is not need to use VAV, you should not model using VAV. The zone thermostat should be used to control the cooling and heating coils directly. When you use VAV dampler, the theremostat controls the damper which change the flow rate which results in different zone temperature. The process is more complex. You need to adjust four or five variables to work together to make the system work. ============================In a real VAV system, a computer control system is used to control the fan speed. Pressure sensors are also required. Duct temperature, diffuser temperature and room temperature are modified to make the desission on whaat to do. Dr. Li
>
> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > From: matthew.sverre.anderson@
>
> > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:13:58 +0000
>
> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Heating/Setpoint Controller
>
> >
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> >
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>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hello Everybody, I have a question that likely (or at least hopefully!) has an easy answer and I am simply too foolish to know it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So I have a building which I modeled as a VAV with no reheat, and no preheat coil. I want the coils to operate as needed and simply ignore any frost warnings. However, I currently have no schedule for either since there will be many times during the fall/spring where we might need to heat/cool during the same day or during the week.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The problem I am currently having is that the heating/cooling coils are operating year long at the same time. I want the HC to operate when the building needs heating, the CC to operate when the building needs cooling (neither to operate at the same time). Am I thinking about this incorrectly?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Also is there a way to implement a dead band above/below the set point where the system is "satisfied" to prevent the system from "slamming" on/off?
>
> >
>
__._,_.___
Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
http://energyplus.helpserve.com or send a message to energyplus-support@xxxxxxxx
The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
http://www.energyplus.gov
The group web site is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
Attachments are currently allowed but be mindful that not everyone has a high speed connection. Limit attachments to small files.
EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable. Open EPlusMainMenu.pdf under the Documentation link and press the "search" button.
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