Thank you, Linda. Yes, that is what I expected and what my results seem to indicate.
Holly W. Samuelson
DDes | LEED AP+ | AIA
Assistant Professor
Assistant Professor
Harvard Graduate School of Design
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 5:59 AM, "EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
5 Messages
Digest #4751
Messages
Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:06 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01
I'm building a water source heat pump system for a proposed building that has a mechanical design. I specified equipment capacity rather than autosize in the template, but the coil objects in the expanded idf are all autosized. Do I have to enter all my equipment capacities again?
Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
Staff Consultant
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
| Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
Waltham, MA 02453
781.907.9000 main
781.907.9350 direct
617.285.2162 mobile
781.907.9009 fax
www.sgh.com<http://www.sgh.com>
Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
Staff Consultant
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
| Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
Waltham, MA 02453
781.907.9000 main
781.907.9350 direct
617.285.2162 mobile
781.907.9009 fax
www.sgh.com<http://www.sgh.com>
Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:14 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Jim Dirkes" jvd2pe
Ned,
How will it know otherwise? Although I never use the templates, it strikes
me as odd (and improper) that your specified capacities would disappear
altogether. Are you sure that none of them survived the expansion?
If that's so, I'd give the Help Desk a question.
On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:06 AM, 'Edward G. Lyon' eglyon@xxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Iâ??m building a water source heat pump system for a proposed building
> that has a mechanical design. I specified equipment capacity rather than
> autosize in the template, but the coil objects in the expanded idf are all
> autosized. Do I have to enter all my equipment capacities again?
>
>
>
> *Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)*
> Staff Consultant
>
> *SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER*
> *|* Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
>
> 41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
> Waltham, MA 02453
>
> 781.907.9000 main
> 781.907.9350 direct
> 617.285.2162 mobile
> 781.907.9009 fax
> www.sgh.com
>
>
>
--
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
CEO/President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
Direct: 616.450.8653
jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
The truth is like a lion; you donâ??t have to defend it. Let it loose; it
will defend itself.
How will it know otherwise? Although I never use the templates, it strikes
me as odd (and improper) that your specified capacities would disappear
altogether. Are you sure that none of them survived the expansion?
If that's so, I'd give the Help Desk a question.
On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:06 AM, 'Edward G. Lyon' eglyon@xxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Iâ??m building a water source heat pump system for a proposed building
> that has a mechanical design. I specified equipment capacity rather than
> autosize in the template, but the coil objects in the expanded idf are all
> autosized. Do I have to enter all my equipment capacities again?
>
>
>
> *Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)*
> Staff Consultant
>
> *SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER*
> *|* Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
>
> 41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
> Waltham, MA 02453
>
> 781.907.9000 main
> 781.907.9350 direct
> 617.285.2162 mobile
> 781.907.9009 fax
> www.sgh.com
>
>
>
--
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
CEO/President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
Direct: 616.450.8653
jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
The truth is like a lion; you donâ??t have to defend it. Let it loose; it
will defend itself.
Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:07 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Jean Marais" jeannieboef
I thinks we've seen this before on the forum. A bug fix has been issued for
it from memory. you could check on github. maybe one of the betas already
has the fix.
2015-01-21 15:14 GMT+01:00 Jim Dirkes jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
> Ned,
> How will it know otherwise? Although I never use the templates, it strikes
> me as odd (and improper) that your specified capacities would disappear
> altogether. Are you sure that none of them survived the expansion?
> If that's so, I'd give the Help Desk a question.
>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:06 AM, 'Edward G. Lyon' eglyon@xxxxxxx
> [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Iâ??m building a water source heat pump system for a proposed building
>> that has a mechanical design. I specified equipment capacity rather than
>> autosize in the template, but the coil objects in the expanded idf are all
>> autosized. Do I have to enter all my equipment capacities again?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)*
>> Staff Consultant
>>
>> *SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER*
>> *|* Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
>>
>> 41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>
>> 781.907.9000 main
>> 781.907.9350 direct
>> 617.285.2162 mobile
>> 781.907.9009 fax
>> www.sgh.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>
> The truth is like a lion; you donâ??t have to defend it. Let it loose; it
> will defend itself.
>
>
>
it from memory. you could check on github. maybe one of the betas already
has the fix.
2015-01-21 15:14 GMT+01:00 Jim Dirkes jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
> Ned,
> How will it know otherwise? Although I never use the templates, it strikes
> me as odd (and improper) that your specified capacities would disappear
> altogether. Are you sure that none of them survived the expansion?
> If that's so, I'd give the Help Desk a question.
>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:06 AM, 'Edward G. Lyon' eglyon@xxxxxxx
> [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Iâ??m building a water source heat pump system for a proposed building
>> that has a mechanical design. I specified equipment capacity rather than
>> autosize in the template, but the coil objects in the expanded idf are all
>> autosized. Do I have to enter all my equipment capacities again?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)*
>> Staff Consultant
>>
>> *SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER*
>> *|* Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
>>
>> 41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>
>> 781.907.9000 main
>> 781.907.9350 direct
>> 617.285.2162 mobile
>> 781.907.9009 fax
>> www.sgh.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>
> The truth is like a lion; you donâ??t have to defend it. Let it loose; it
> will defend itself.
>
>
>
Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:33 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Holly Samuelson" hollywas
Dear Jeannie, Ned, and Linda,Thank you very much for your input. Yes, I was trying to figure out if my internal mass area would see direct solar or not. It sounds like the jury is still out on that one, so I will experiment. The E+ literature does not seem to go into any more detail. Thanks again.Best,Holly Holly W. Samuelson
DDes | LEED AP+ | AIA
Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:36 AM, "EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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4 Messages
Digest #4749 1a Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01 1b Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "Linda Lawrie" lklawrie 1c Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef 2a Re: how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface due to by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
Messages
1a
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:53 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01
As I understand it, the internal mass object does not see direct solar gain. I have also found that it is sensitive to area defined. That means you canâ??t just make a random object with total mass you want to simulate. The mass object should have the surface area of what you are representing.
Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
Staff Consultant
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
781.907.9000 main
781.907.9350 direct
617.285.2162 mobile
781.907.9009 fax
www.sgh.com
From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution Model
Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means? Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be the case for certain interior elements if they are always in shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
Many thanks for any guidance.
Best,
Holly
Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
1b
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:01 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Linda Lawrie" lklawrie
I think the "use with caution" means when you use
the "FullInteriorAndExterior" solar distribution
model -- and lump internal partitions into
"Internal Mass" then places inside the zone would
see solar gain where they wouldn't if the
internal parititions were modeled as surfaces.
At 07:53 AM 1/17/2015, 'Edward G. Lyon'
eglyon@xxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>As I understand it, the internal mass object
>does not see direct solar gain. I have also
>found that it is sensitive to area
>defined. That means you canât just make a
>random object with total mass you want to
>simulate. The mass object should have the
>surface area of what you are representing.
>
>Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
>Staff Consultant
>SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
>781.907.9000 main
>781.907.9350 direct
>617.285.2162 mobile
>781.907.9009 fax
>www.sgh.com
>
>From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
>To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with
>"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution Model
>
>
>Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
>Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
>I am trying to understand how the internal
>thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
>handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
>the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
>"simplifyi ng calculations using internal mass
>must be used with caution when the
>"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
>Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
>caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
>thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
>potentially hitting it (which might
>realistically be the case for certain interior
>elements if they are always in shade)? However,
>would you assume that this internal mass is
>still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
>still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
>
>Many thanks for any guidance.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
>Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
1c
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:51 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
The internalmass object uses a user defined area for calculations.
Geometrically, it's not really there in the zone. So I think e+ uses
the area for an approximated convection and radiation heat exchange.
Convection is not so important, as it exchanges with the zone air
node. Radiation is a bit more complicated. With which surfaces should
it exchange radiation and to what extent? How much surface should
receive direct beam? Internal mass usually represents things standing
on the floor and infalling direct beam mostly lands on up-facing
surfaces. So I assume e+ looks at the user entered surface area, makes
some approximations. I don't know what those are, but if I were to
guess, I would guess that it receives all direct beam except for the
portion that is smaller than the floor. I would guess that the
reflected fraction is equally proportioned to all the other zone
surfaces except the floor. And that long wave infrared radiation
exchange is also equally proportioned to all surfaces except the floor.
If these aspects are important for your model, then I would not rely
on my guessing. Check the documentation or if it's not there, the
code. Or ask the helpdesk. The forum you've asked.
The "caution" should be more apparent. Why bother simulating detailed
internal reflections and radiation exchange when it's all getting
proportioned anyway. So basically you loose this accuracy.
Not a very helpful answer, I guess.
Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
On 16.01.2015, at 23:43, "Holly Samuelson hollywas@xxxxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
> I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka
> "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page
> 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying
> calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the
> "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
> Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means?
> Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the
> solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be
> the case for certain interior elements if they are always in
> shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still
> exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or
> emitting heat in that way?
>
> Many thanks for any guidance.
> Best,
> Holly
>
> Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
2a
Re: how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface due to
Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
1) include the relevent output object to have the simulation generate
the rdd file.
2) run (the simulation)
3) look in the rdd file at the plathora of output variables and check
which ones sound like what you're looking for.
4) read up in the documentation on those.
Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
On 17.01.2015, at 10:01, "hope.zh@xxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote:
> May I ask how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface
> due to its solar gain in EnergyPlus? Is there a specific output
> variable related to this?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
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DDes | LEED AP+ | AIA
Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:36 AM, "EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<!--#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp #yiv4510086855hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp #yiv4510086855ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp .yiv4510086855ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp .yiv4510086855ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-mkp .yiv4510086855ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-sponsor #yiv4510086855ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-sponsor #yiv4510086855ygrp-lc #yiv4510086855hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4510086855 #yiv4510086855ygrp-sponsor #yiv4510086855ygrp-lc .yiv4510086855ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}--> EnergyPlus Support EnergyPlus Support Group
4 Messages
Digest #4749 1a Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01 1b Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "Linda Lawrie" lklawrie 1c Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef 2a Re: how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface due to by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
Messages
1a
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:53 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01
As I understand it, the internal mass object does not see direct solar gain. I have also found that it is sensitive to area defined. That means you canâ??t just make a random object with total mass you want to simulate. The mass object should have the surface area of what you are representing.
Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
Staff Consultant
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
781.907.9000 main
781.907.9350 direct
617.285.2162 mobile
781.907.9009 fax
www.sgh.com
From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution Model
Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means? Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be the case for certain interior elements if they are always in shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
Many thanks for any guidance.
Best,
Holly
Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
1b
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:01 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Linda Lawrie" lklawrie
I think the "use with caution" means when you use
the "FullInteriorAndExterior" solar distribution
model -- and lump internal partitions into
"Internal Mass" then places inside the zone would
see solar gain where they wouldn't if the
internal parititions were modeled as surfaces.
At 07:53 AM 1/17/2015, 'Edward G. Lyon'
eglyon@xxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>As I understand it, the internal mass object
>does not see direct solar gain. I have also
>found that it is sensitive to area
>defined. That means you canât just make a
>random object with total mass you want to
>simulate. The mass object should have the
>surface area of what you are representing.
>
>Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
>Staff Consultant
>SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
>781.907.9000 main
>781.907.9350 direct
>617.285.2162 mobile
>781.907.9009 fax
>www.sgh.com
>
>From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
>To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with
>"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution Model
>
>
>Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
>Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
>I am trying to understand how the internal
>thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
>handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
>the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
>"simplifyi ng calculations using internal mass
>must be used with caution when the
>"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
>Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
>caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
>thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
>potentially hitting it (which might
>realistically be the case for certain interior
>elements if they are always in shade)? However,
>would you assume that this internal mass is
>still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
>still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
>
>Many thanks for any guidance.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
>Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
1c
Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:51 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
The internalmass object uses a user defined area for calculations.
Geometrically, it's not really there in the zone. So I think e+ uses
the area for an approximated convection and radiation heat exchange.
Convection is not so important, as it exchanges with the zone air
node. Radiation is a bit more complicated. With which surfaces should
it exchange radiation and to what extent? How much surface should
receive direct beam? Internal mass usually represents things standing
on the floor and infalling direct beam mostly lands on up-facing
surfaces. So I assume e+ looks at the user entered surface area, makes
some approximations. I don't know what those are, but if I were to
guess, I would guess that it receives all direct beam except for the
portion that is smaller than the floor. I would guess that the
reflected fraction is equally proportioned to all the other zone
surfaces except the floor. And that long wave infrared radiation
exchange is also equally proportioned to all surfaces except the floor.
If these aspects are important for your model, then I would not rely
on my guessing. Check the documentation or if it's not there, the
code. Or ask the helpdesk. The forum you've asked.
The "caution" should be more apparent. Why bother simulating detailed
internal reflections and radiation exchange when it's all getting
proportioned anyway. So basically you loose this accuracy.
Not a very helpful answer, I guess.
Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
On 16.01.2015, at 23:43, "Holly Samuelson hollywas@xxxxxxxxx
[EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
> I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka
> "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page
> 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying
> calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the
> "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
> Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means?
> Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the
> solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be
> the case for certain interior elements if they are always in
> shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still
> exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or
> emitting heat in that way?
>
> Many thanks for any guidance.
> Best,
> Holly
>
> Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^
2a
Re: how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface due to
Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
1) include the relevent output object to have the simulation generate
the rdd file.
2) run (the simulation)
3) look in the rdd file at the plathora of output variables and check
which ones sound like what you're looking for.
4) read up in the documentation on those.
Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
On 17.01.2015, at 10:01, "hope.zh@xxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote:
> May I ask how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a surface
> due to its solar gain in EnergyPlus? Is there a specific output
> variable related to this?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
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Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:57 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Linda Lawrie" lklawrie
Not sure why you say the Jury is out on
that. Internal mass is not a physical entity in
the zone. It won't see direct solar.
It will absorb (heat/solar) from other surfaces.
At 08:33 AM 1/21/2015, Holly Samuelson
hollywas@xxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>Dear Jeannie, Ned, and Linda,
>Thank you very much for your input. Yes, I was
>trying to figure out if my internal mass area
>would see direct solar or not. It sounds like
>the jury is still out on that one, so I will
>experiment. The E+ literature does not seem to
>go into any more detail. Thanks again.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>
>Holly W. Samuelson
>DDes | LEED AP+ | AIA
>Assistant Professor
>Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
>On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:36 AM,
>"EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
><EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3JkZ25rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>
>Yahoo! Groups
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3JkZ25rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>
>
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZHBocGpyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>EnergyPlus
>Support Group
>
>
>4 Messages
>
>
>
>Digest #4749
>1a
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1a>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01
>1b
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1b>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "Linda Lawrie" lklawrie
>1c
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1c>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
>2a
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#2a>Re:
>how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a
>surface due to by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
>
>
>Messages
>
>
>
>
>
>1a
>
>
>
>
>
>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
>
>
>
>
>
>Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:53 am (PST) . Posted by:
>
>
>
>
>
><mailto:eglyon@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"Edward
>G. Lyon" nedlyon01
>
>
>
>As I understand it, the internal mass object
>does not see direct solar gain. I have also
>found that it is sensitive to area defined. That
>means you canât just make a random object with
>total mass you want to simulate. The mass object
>should have the surface area of what you are representing.
>
>Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
>Staff Consultant
>SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
>781.907.9000 main
>781.907.9350 direct
>617.285.2162 mobile
>781.907.9009 fax
>www.sgh.com
>
>From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
>To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass
>with "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution Model
>
>
>Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
>Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
>I am trying to understand how the internal
>thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
>handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
>the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
>"simplifying calculations using internal mass
>must be used with caution when the
>"FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
>Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
>caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
>thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
>potentially hitting it (which might
>realistically be the case for certain interior
>elements if they are always in shade)? However,
>would you assume that this internal mass is
>still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
>still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
>
>Many thanks for any guidance.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
>Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
><mailto:eglyon@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to sender .
><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to group .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/messages/33797;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaGgwcGdsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQ-?act=reply&messageNum=33797>Reply
>via Web Post .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/topics/33793;_ylc=X3oDMTM3cTNjNzk5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQEdHBjSWQDMzM3OTM->All
>Messages (4) .
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#toc>Top ^
>
>
>1b
>
>
>
>
>
>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
>
>
>
>
>
>Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:01 am (PST) . Posted by:
>
>
>
>
>
><mailto:linda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"Linda
>Lawrie" lklawrie
>
>
>
>I think the "use with caution" means when you use
>the "FullInteriorAndExterior" solar distribution
>model -- and lump internal partitions into
>"Internal Mass" then places inside the zone would
>see solar gain where they wouldn't if the
>internal parititions were modeled as surfaces.
>
>At 07:53 AM 1/17/2015, 'Edward G. Lyon'
>eglyon@xxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>
> >As I understand it, the internal mass object
> >does not see direct solar gain. I have also
> >found that it is sensitive to area
> >defined. That means you can�¢t just make a
> >random object with total mass you want to
> >simulate. The mass object should have the
> >surface area of what you are representing.
> >
> >Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
> >Staff Consultant
> >SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
> >781.907.9000 main
> >781.907.9350 direct
> >617.285.2162 mobile
> >781.907.9009 fax
> >www.sgh.com
> >
> >From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
> >To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with
> >"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution Model
> >
> >
> >Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> >Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
> >
> >I am trying to understand how the internal
> >thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
> >handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
> >the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
> >"simplifyi ng calculations using internal mass
> >must be used with caution when the
> >"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution model is chosen.
> >
> >Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
> >caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
> >thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
> >potentially hitting it (which might
> >realistically be the case for certain interior
> >elements if they are always in shade)? However,
> >would you assume that this internal mass is
> >still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
> >still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
> >
> >Many thanks for any guidance.
> >Best,
> >Holly
> >
> >Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> >Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
> >
> >
> >
> >
><mailto:linda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to sender .
><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to group .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/messages/33798;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc3BuZGhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQ-?act=reply&messageNum=33798>Reply
>via Web Post .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/topics/33793;_ylc=X3oDMTM3aXY0MHB2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQEdHBjSWQDMzM3OTM->All
>Messages (4) .
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#toc>Top ^
>
>
>1c
>
>
>
>
>
>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
>
>
>
>
>
>Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:51 pm (PST) . Posted by:
>
>
>
>
>
><mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx"
>jeannieboef
>
>
>
>The internalmass object uses a user defined area for calculations.
>Geometrically, it's not really there in the zone. So I think e+ uses
>the area for an approximated convection and radiation heat exchange.
>Convection is not so important, as it exchanges with the zone air
>node. Radiation is a bit more complicated. With which surfaces should
>it exchange radiation and to what extent? How much surface should
>receive direct beam? Internal mass usually represents things standing
>on the floor and infalling direct beam mostly lands on up-facing
>surfaces. So I assume e+ looks at the user entered surface area, makes
>some approximations. I don't know what those are, but if I were to
>guess, I would guess that it receives all direct beam except for the
>portion that is smaller than the floor. I would guess that the
>reflected fraction is equally proportioned to all the other zone
>surfaces except the floor. And that long wave infrared radiation
>exchange is also equally proportioned to all surfaces except the floor.
>
>If these aspects are important for your model, then I would not rely
>on my guessing. Check the documentation or if it's not there, the
>code. Or ask the helpdesk. The forum you've asked.
>
>The "caution" should be more apparent. Why bother simulating detailed
>internal reflections and radiation exchange when it's all getting
>proportioned anyway. So basically you loose this accuracy.
>
>Not a very helpful answer, I guess.
>
>Mit freundlichen Gr�¼�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
>
>i. A.
>Jean Marais
>b.i.g. bechtold
>Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
>
>On 16.01.2015, at 23:43, "Holly Samuelson hollywas@xxxxxxxxx
>[EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> > Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
> >
> > I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka
> > "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page
> > 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying
> > calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the
> > "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
> >
> > Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means?
> > Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the
> > solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be
> > the case for certain interior elements if they are always in
> > shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still
> > exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or
> > emitting heat in that way?
> >
> > Many thanks for any guidance.
> > Best,
> > Holly
> >
> > Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> > Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
> >
> >
><mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to sender .
><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to group .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/messages/33799;_ylc=X3oDMTJyY29sMXF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQ-?act=reply&messageNum=33799>Reply
>via Web Post .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/topics/33793;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZXQ0aGs1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQEdHBjSWQDMzM3OTM->All
>Messages (4) .
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#toc>Top ^
that. Internal mass is not a physical entity in
the zone. It won't see direct solar.
It will absorb (heat/solar) from other surfaces.
At 08:33 AM 1/21/2015, Holly Samuelson
hollywas@xxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>Dear Jeannie, Ned, and Linda,
>Thank you very much for your input. Yes, I was
>trying to figure out if my internal mass area
>would see direct solar or not. It sounds like
>the jury is still out on that one, so I will
>experiment. The E+ literature does not seem to
>go into any more detail. Thanks again.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>
>Holly W. Samuelson
>DDes | LEED AP+ | AIA
>Assistant Professor
>Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
>On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:36 AM,
>"EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
><EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3JkZ25rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>
>Yahoo! Groups
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3JkZ25rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>
>
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZHBocGpyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARzdGltZQMxNDIxNTgwOTg0>EnergyPlus
>Support Group
>
>
>4 Messages
>
>
>
>Digest #4749
>1a
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1a>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "Edward G. Lyon" nedlyon01
>1b
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1b>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "Linda Lawrie" lklawrie
>1c
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#1c>Re:
>Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior"
>Solar Distribution by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
>2a
><https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=dts1qdg085vdd#2a>Re:
>how to get the longwave radiation emitted from a
>surface due to by "jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" jeannieboef
>
>
>Messages
>
>
>
>
>
>1a
>
>
>
>
>
>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
>
>
>
>
>
>Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:53 am (PST) . Posted by:
>
>
>
>
>
><mailto:eglyon@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"Edward
>G. Lyon" nedlyon01
>
>
>
>As I understand it, the internal mass object
>does not see direct solar gain. I have also
>found that it is sensitive to area defined. That
>means you canât just make a random object with
>total mass you want to simulate. The mass object
>should have the surface area of what you are representing.
>
>Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
>Staff Consultant
>SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
>781.907.9000 main
>781.907.9350 direct
>617.285.2162 mobile
>781.907.9009 fax
>www.sgh.com
>
>From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
>To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass
>with "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution Model
>
>
>Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
>Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
>
>I am trying to understand how the internal
>thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
>handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
>the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
>"simplifying calculations using internal mass
>must be used with caution when the
>"FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
>
>Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
>caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
>thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
>potentially hitting it (which might
>realistically be the case for certain interior
>elements if they are always in shade)? However,
>would you assume that this internal mass is
>still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
>still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
>
>Many thanks for any guidance.
>Best,
>Holly
>
>Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
>Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
>
>
><mailto:eglyon@xxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to sender .
><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to group .
><https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EnergyPlus_Support/conversations/messages/33797;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaGgwcGdsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BG1zZ0lkAzMzNzk3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MjE1ODA5ODQ-?act=reply&messageNum=33797>Reply
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>Messages (4) .
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>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
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>Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:01 am (PST) . Posted by:
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><mailto:linda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"Linda
>Lawrie" lklawrie
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>
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>I think the "use with caution" means when you use
>the "FullInteriorAndExterior" solar distribution
>model -- and lump internal partitions into
>"Internal Mass" then places inside the zone would
>see solar gain where they wouldn't if the
>internal parititions were modeled as surfaces.
>
>At 07:53 AM 1/17/2015, 'Edward G. Lyon'
>eglyon@xxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
>
> >As I understand it, the internal mass object
> >does not see direct solar gain. I have also
> >found that it is sensitive to area
> >defined. That means you can�¢t just make a
> >random object with total mass you want to
> >simulate. The mass object should have the
> >surface area of what you are representing.
> >
> >Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
> >Staff Consultant
> >SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
> >781.907.9000 main
> >781.907.9350 direct
> >617.285.2162 mobile
> >781.907.9009 fax
> >www.sgh.com
> >
> >From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:44 PM
> >To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Internal Mass with
> >"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution Model
> >
> >
> >Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> >Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
> >
> >I am trying to understand how the internal
> >thermal mass (aka "InternalMass& quot;) is being
> >handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page 222 of
> >the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states,
> >"simplifyi ng calculations using internal mass
> >must be used with caution when the
> >"FullInter iorAndExterior&q uot; Solar Distribution model is chosen.
> >
> >Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use
> >caution" means? Does that mean that my internal
> >thermal mass does not "see" the solar radiation
> >potentially hitting it (which might
> >realistically be the case for certain interior
> >elements if they are always in shade)? However,
> >would you assume that this internal mass is
> >still exposed to the indoor air, and thus could
> >still be absorbing or emitting heat in that way?
> >
> >Many thanks for any guidance.
> >Best,
> >Holly
> >
> >Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> >Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
> >
> >
> >
> >
><mailto:linda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
>to sender .
><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
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>Re: Internal Mass with "FullInteriorAndExterior" Solar Distribution
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>Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:51 pm (PST) . Posted by:
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><mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>"jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx"
>jeannieboef
>
>
>
>The internalmass object uses a user defined area for calculations.
>Geometrically, it's not really there in the zone. So I think e+ uses
>the area for an approximated convection and radiation heat exchange.
>Convection is not so important, as it exchanges with the zone air
>node. Radiation is a bit more complicated. With which surfaces should
>it exchange radiation and to what extent? How much surface should
>receive direct beam? Internal mass usually represents things standing
>on the floor and infalling direct beam mostly lands on up-facing
>surfaces. So I assume e+ looks at the user entered surface area, makes
>some approximations. I don't know what those are, but if I were to
>guess, I would guess that it receives all direct beam except for the
>portion that is smaller than the floor. I would guess that the
>reflected fraction is equally proportioned to all the other zone
>surfaces except the floor. And that long wave infrared radiation
>exchange is also equally proportioned to all surfaces except the floor.
>
>If these aspects are important for your model, then I would not rely
>on my guessing. Check the documentation or if it's not there, the
>code. Or ask the helpdesk. The forum you've asked.
>
>The "caution" should be more apparent. Why bother simulating detailed
>internal reflections and radiation exchange when it's all getting
>proportioned anyway. So basically you loose this accuracy.
>
>Not a very helpful answer, I guess.
>
>Mit freundlichen Gr�¼�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
>
>i. A.
>Jean Marais
>b.i.g. bechtold
>Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
>
>On 16.01.2015, at 23:43, "Holly Samuelson hollywas@xxxxxxxxx
>[EnergyPlus_Support]" <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Dear EnergyPlus_Support,
> > Please excuse the accidental cross-posting.
> >
> > I am trying to understand how the internal thermal mass (aka
> > "InternalMass& quot;) is being handled in my EnergyPlus models. On page
> > 222 of the EnergyPlus Input-Output Reference it states, "simplifying
> > calculations using internal mass must be used with caution when the
> > "FullInteriorA ndExterior" Solar Distribution model is chosen.
> >
> > Could anyone kindly help me understand what "use caution" means?
> > Does that mean that my internal thermal mass does not "see" the
> > solar radiation potentially hitting it (which might realistically be
> > the case for certain interior elements if they are always in
> > shade)? However, would you assume that this internal mass is still
> > exposed to the indoor air, and thus could still be absorbing or
> > emitting heat in that way?
> >
> > Many thanks for any guidance.
> > Best,
> > Holly
> >
> > Holly W. Samuelson, DDes, LEED, AIA
> > Assistant Professor Harvard Graduate School of Design
> >
> >
><mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
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><mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Internal%20Mass%20with%20%22FullInteriorAndExterior%22%20Solar%20Distribution%20>Reply
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