[Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to showup in my sim file BEPU report?

Chris Jones cj at enersave.ca
Mon Apr 19 14:27:47 PDT 2010


I had assumed that the SS-R report showed the 
number of under heated and under cooled hours and 
was sufficient for LEED submissions?

At 05:04 PM 4/19/2010, Nick Caton wrote:
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative";
>         boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAE003.EBF127E7"
>
>Looks exciting
 I think I know what we’re looking at

>
>Copied below is a (lengthy) discussion which 
>essentially concluded with one of Scott 
>Criswell’s typical answers – hammering the 
>confusion out of us all =).  In it, he mentions 
>the plan to include this helpful information in 
>future DOE2/eQuest releases
 hopefully this is coming sooner than later!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM
>To: Carol Gardner; Bishop, Bill
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet 
>cooling/heating hours toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?
>
>Well, this seems new; never seen it. A quick 
>glance at my eQuest reports tells me that the 
>3.63 – build 6510 version I have runs with 
>DOE-2.2-47d. I see here “h”, so it looks like the new one (or a test version).
>
>Anyway, this is the info we need for LEED EAc1 
>Template. And we cannot get it from the 
>SS-F/SS-R ‘cause they would include the 
>coincident hours, while this one does not seem to.
>
>______________
>Demba NDIAYE
>
>From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:14 PM
>To: Bishop, Bill
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet 
>cooling/heating hours to show up in my sim file BEPU report?
>
>Quick first take. It looks like the numbers that 
>would come from an SS-F/SS-R report summed up. I have never seen this either.
>
>Maybe you can turn it off somehow? What do the above referenced reports show?
>
>Carol
>On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Bishop, Bill 
><<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com> wrote:
>I have an eQUESTion:
>
>How do I get this to show up in my sim files? Is 
>this a newer installation? All I ever get is the 
>first two “Percent of Hours” lines. (And it’s 
>not because I always have zero unmet hours
)
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>
>[]
>
>
>
>William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED® AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
>Mechanical Engineer
>
>134 South Fitzhugh Street
>Rochester, NY 14608
>T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114
>F: (585) 325-6005
><mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
>www.pathfinder-ea.com
>P Please strive to live sustainably.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Equest-users mailing list
><http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a 
>blank message to 
><mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>\From: 
>equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
>Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:33 AM
>To: Scott Criswell; steve.gates at doe2.com
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Scott,
>
>Wanted to express thanks I’m certain many of us 
>in the community share for you, Steve Gates and 
>the rest of the DOE-2 team.  I know I’m not the 
>only one looking forward very much to this new feature!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: Scott Criswell [mailto:scott.criswell at doe2.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:09 AM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I
>Cc: ashu gupta; Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; 
>Kendra Tupper; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>I can confirm Mike's understanding of the 
>DOE-2/eQUEST results.  To get the correct number 
>of hours of unmet loads, people should MULTIPLY 
>the Percent hours outside throttling range from 
>BEPS or BEPU by the total annual "hours fans on" listed in report SS-E.
>
>One other comment re: Ashu's write-up - I 
>believe that (for DOE-2/eQUEST) a zone 
>temperature has to be more than one degree 
>outside the throttling range for that hour to be 
>counted as an hour outside throttling range.  So 
>for a zone with a heating thermostat setpoint of 
>72 and a 2 degree throttling range (=> 71-73 
>degree "throttling range"), the zone temperature 
>would have to be LESS THAN 70 in order for that hour to be counted.
>
>related info -
>We are contemplating a change to the Air-Side 
>HVAC Summary view in the eQUEST interface to 
>report this total number of hours as opposed to 
>just the percent in the totals section at the bottom of the report.
>We have also just in the past several days 
>(thanks to the efforts of Steve Gates) added 
>precision to the percent hours outside 
>throttling range reported on BEPS & BEPU and 
>ALSO added separate reporting of hours any zone 
>is either under cooled or under heated, intended 
>for reporting to LEED submission 
>templates.  Assuming no further changes (which 
>is certainly not out of the question), future 
>releases of DOE-2/eQUEST will report the following in the BEPS & BEPU reports:
>          PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE =  4.45
>          PERCENT OF HOURS ANY PLANT LOAD NOT SATISFIED                =  0.00
>          HOURS ANY ZONE ABOVE COOLING THROTTLING RANGE                =    98
>          HOURS ANY ZONE BELOW HEATING THROTTLING RANGE                =    25
>
>- Scott
>
>
>Rosenberg, Michael I wrote:
>Ashu,
>
>I am in agreement with everything you stated except possibly this;
>
>“When percentage of unmet is specified, than 
>this is the percentage of total number of hours 
>(1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is 
>performed (not just the occupied hours)”
>
>My understanding is that some simulation 
>programs (DOE2 and eQuest in particular) report 
>this as a percentage of hours that the fan is 
>running. I could be wrong, and I am sure some of 
>you DOE2 experts can comment on what is reported in the DOE2 BEPS report.
>
>Mike
>
>
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From: ashu gupta 
>[<mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com>mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:17 PM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I; 'Nick Caton'; 'Crockett, Jim'; 'Kendra Tupper'
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Dear All,
>
>Explanation of Unmet Hours is as follows:
>
>Unmet Hours:
>Unmet hours of a building are the summation of 
>the number of hours when the heating or the 
>cooling set point temperature of a zone is not 
>met either by the HVAC system or by the plant.
>
>Understanding/Interpreting/Calculating the number of unmet hours:
>    * Unmet hour is for a particular zone when 
> the zone indoor temperature is higher than the 
> heating or cooling set point specified in that hour.
>    * The number or the percentage of unmet 
> hours in a building is usually given as one of the outputs of the simulation.
>    * Zone wise unmet can also be read from the 
> various output files provided by the software used for simulation.
>(Example:
>Visual DOE: “SS-J System Peak Heating and Cooling Days” report &
>Energy Plus: Output Variable, “Time Cooling Set point Not met”)
>    * When two zones are unmet at the same hour, 
> this will count to one unmet hour for the building.
>    * When two zones have unmet hours during 
> different non overlapping times of a day, the 
> total number of unmet hours in that day is the 
> summation of these unmet hours of each zone. 
> This total for the year should be considered as 
> the total unmet hours of the building.
>Example:
>When each zone is unmet in the specified hours as beside,
>
>Zone 1 unmet during:                        6          8          14        16
>Zone 2 unmet during:                        6          8          12        16
>Zone 3 unmet during:                        7          8          12        13
>
>Total number of unmet hours of the building: 7 hrs and not 12hrs.
>6          7          8          12        13        14        16
>
>    * When percentage of unmet is specified, 
> than this is the percentage of total number of 
> hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the 
> simulation is performed (not just the occupied hours)
>    * As per ASHRAE 90.1-2004, the unmet hours 
> of the total building should be less than or 
> equal to 300 hours and the difference in the 
> base case and proposed case should be less than or equal to 50 hours.
>    * If unmet load hours in the proposed 
> building exceed the unmet load hours in the 
> baseline building by more than 50, then the 
> size of equipment in the baseline building 
> shall be reduced incrementally, until the condition is satisfied.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Ashu Gupta,
>Project Engineer,
>Kamal Cogent Energy,
>Kamal Ratan Chanbers 1st Floor,
>Opp. GPO, M.I. Road,
>Jaipur 302001
>Ph 141 2373185(W)
>Ph 9251665008(M)
><mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com>kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com
>www.kamalcogentenergy.com
>
>----------
>From: 
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] 
>On Behalf Of Rosenberg, Michael I
>Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:07 AM
>To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>I think eQuest and any DOE2 based software does 
>report the hours of loads not being met as 
>required by Appendix G. In the BEPS report it 
>gives “PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE 
>OF THROTTLING RANGE”. My understanding of this 
>number is that it is a percentage of scheduled 
>fan run-time hours, so some calculation may be necessary.
>
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From: Nick Caton 
>[<mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:20 PM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Mike,
>
>I appreciate you bringing this up.  This 
>definition drives straight to the heart of 
>defining the issue-at-hand
  Since I kinda 
>presented both sides of the issue at once – I’d 
>like to clarify where I stand regarding what the 
>correct interpretation should be.
>
>The logic is as follows:  If a modeled year has 
>8,760 hours, can there be 10,000 unmet load 
>hours?  By strict reading of the standard’s 
>definition below, I would put my foot down 
>stating there can only be 8,760, at most.
>
>By common practice however, it appears a 
>majority (myself included) sum unmet 
>cooling/heating hours between the zones, even if 
>they should fall on the same modeled hour, 
>against the intent of the standard.
>
>My pure speculation (for what it’s worth, as a 
>young EIT) is this practice developed because 
>eQuest BDL reports don’t present the crunched 
>numbers in a way that makes the sum of unmet 
>load hours, as intended by 90.1, easy to 
>determine.  I wouldn’t be shocked to learn other 
>energy modeling software packages generate LEED 
>compliance summaries featuring unmet load hour 
>totals in sync with the real intent of ASHRAE 90.1.
>
>If there’s anything I’ve learned from going out 
>on a limb, it’s that I’m sure to learn something whether I fall or not!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: Rosenberg, Michael I 
>[<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:39 PM
>To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; 
><mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Nick,
>
>Your interpretation is the correct one. 
>According to the definitions in Standard 90.1.
>unmet load hour: an hour in which one or more 
>zones is outside of the thermostat setpoint range.
>
>
>Mike
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From: 
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:33 PM
>To: Crockett, Jim; 
><mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Jim,
>
>That’s actually a really good question that I 
>was afraid to ask when I first encountered it – 
>kudos to you!  I’ve currently resolved to follow 
>what others seemed to be doing within and 
>outside of my office:  Sum up all unmet hours 
>for cooling and heating between the zones just 
>as you describe.   In your example, I’d agree 
>that the unmet hours of your 301 zone building total 301.
>
>I do agree that this doesn’t seem intuitively to 
>be the intent of the standard, however between 
>what is suggested within 90.1, the LEED 
>handbook, and the LEED credit templates – I 
>honestly can’t see any clear indication either 
>way on which is the appropriate interpretation.
>
>I think the appropriate metric for ensuring 
>appropriately sized systems should be something 
>like: “hours of the modeled year in which at 
>least one zone has an unmet cooling/heating 
>load,”  but I think that was avoided by all 
>concerned parties because it’s too wordy!
>
>My acting interpretation, again referencing your 
>example, is that all systems of your 301 zone 
>example affecting the zones with unmet 
>cooling/heating hours should have their 
>heating/cooling/overall sizing capacity ratios 
>increased incrementally until the design hours 
>fall below 300 (and/or within 50 of the sum from 
>the other model, depending on your situation).
>
>Afraid I’m only really adding to the discussion 
>here without providing a solid answer.  Would 
>like to echo the desire to see anyone’s 
>experiences that would help us know the “right” 
>way to interpret this (in my case, specifically 
>in the context of a LEED submittal).
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: 
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Crockett, Jim
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:27 PM
>To: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Ashrae 90.1 (2004) Appendix G3.1.2.2 requires a 
>baseline building to have less than 300 unmet 
>hours.  What exactly does this mean?
>
>To illustrate my question:  assume you have a 
>building with 301 zones, and each zone has 1 
>unmet hour per year.  This gives you a total of 
>301 unmet hours, and requires you to increase 
>your baseline equipment capacity.  But you could 
>argue that, on average, the building has only 1 unmet hour per year.
>
>Have any of you run into this?  Is it addressed in an addendum somewhere, etc?
>
>Any help is appreciated.  Thanks,
>
>
>
>Jim Crockett, P.E.
>
>Senior Project Engineer
>Energy & Carbon Management
>Nexant, Inc.
>4021 S. 700 E., Suite 250
>Salt Lake City, Utah 84107
>
>(801) 639-5603 - phone
>(801) 266-4786 - fax
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Bldg-sim mailing list
><http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a 
>blank message to 
><mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>
>--
>This message has been scanned for viruses and
>dangerous content by <http://www.mailscanner.info/>MailScanner, and is
>believed to be clean.
>
>--
>This message has been scanned for viruses and
>dangerous content by <http://www.mailscanner.info/>MailScanner, and is
>believed to be clean.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Equest-users mailing list
>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a 
>blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG


Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel.  416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/6e522668/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2517ef2a.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1459 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/6e522668/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2517ef3a.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56343 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/6e522668/attachment-0003.jpg>


More information about the Equest-users mailing list