[Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs

[Pasha Korber-Gonzalez]

Joe,

I would agree with your approach.  If GBCI is the one referencing the CIR,
then I also would expect they would allow you to reference that same CIR for
your project...otherwise they shouldn't have mentioned it to you.

Also, it is correct that only hard-wired lighting should be represented.
THere is just too much human variable that will plug lamps into every outlet
in the walls, thus increasing the non-installed lighting power.   This is
thier argument.

Although it might not offer you formal reference for your situation, you
might also look at ASHRAE STandard 90.2, which is the energy standard for
low-rise and residentail buildings.   Maybe you will find something
enlightening in there...  You might also have a good argument if you can
reference how Title-24 and California accept residential LPD in thier models
and modeling guidelines.
Good luck and be cautious, through my experience I've found that the GBCI
reviewers are typically not more experieneced than we the simulators.
Remember all they do is review simulation output, they don't always have the
experience in building the models under the contstraints that we are under
as design simulators.    It is our purpose as simulators to represent
real-life as best as possible.  It is GBCI's purpose to deny our simulation
approaches if it doesn't follow *thier* rules for simulation. (this is only
my opinion from experience.)

Pasha




On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Joe Snider <joe at sequil.com> wrote:

>  Hi Bill,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the response.  That is actually exactly what we did – and USGBC
> rejected it citing a LEED NC 2.2 CIR, even though this is a LEED 2009
> project and they are saying old CIRs are not applicable to new projects
> anymore.
>
>
>
> Their only direction is to plug in 1.1 w / Sf for both sides of the
> equation.  However, the CIR they reference opens the door for exceptional
> calculations, with good justification.  What could be more justified than
> using the 1.1 w / SF that ASHRAE has for similar spaces?
>
>
>
> It is a bit confusing because there seems to be an implication that
> somewhere in ASHRAE it dictates using the same numbers for proposed and
> baseline for hard-wired lighting in dwelling units.  We can’t find any
> direction to that effect anywhere, which it seems would leave it open to
> interpretation.
>
>
>
> At this time we are operating under the assumption that we can use the same
> CIR they referenced, and therefore use exceptional calcs.  Unless anyone
> else has any thoughts….
>
>
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Joe Snider, AIA, LEED AP
>
> * *
>
> *SEQUIL Systems, Inc*.
>
> *high performance sustainable structures***
>
>
>
> 1 SE 4th Ave, Suite 205
>
> Delray Beach, FL 33483
>
> t: 561.921.0900
>
> f: 561.208.6090
>
>
>
> www.SEQUIL.com <http://www.sequil.com/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bishop, Bill [mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 08, 2010 9:26 AM
>
> *To:* Joe Snider; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs
>
>
>
> Joe,
>
>
>
> The dwelling units exception in Appendix G applies to “spaces in which
> lighting systems are connected via receptacles and are not shown or provided
> for on building plans.” You say you’ve worked hard to reduce lighting energy
> use, so presumably, you’ve designed the lighting for the spaces and it
> appears on the plans. Therefore, you are justified in using your actual
> lighting design for the proposed building model, and the LPD value for the
> baseline, which should be 1.1 W/ft2 for living quarters per Table 9.6.1.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED® AP **|** **Pathfinder Engineers &
> Architects LLP***
>
> Mechanical Engineer
>
>
>
> 134 South Fitzhugh Street                 Rochester, NY 14608
> T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114                F: (585) 325-6005
>
> wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com           www.pathfinder-ea.com
>
> P   Sustainability – the forest AND the trees. P
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Nick Caton
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:16 PM
> *To:* Joe Snider; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs
>
>
>
> Hey Joe,
>
>
>
> If you’re looking to start somewhere…  I know the NEC (NFPA 70) lays out a
> clear method of estimating dwelling unit lighting loads within Article 220.
> It starts off seeming high (3W/SF), but there are heavy demand factors that
> vary with the total calc’d load following within the same article: i.e.
> first 3,000 @ 100%... 3,000 to 120,000 @ 35% etc…
>
>
>
> While I’ve yet to fall back on the NEC as an energy modeling resource, I’m
> unaware of any better direct source for residential lighting loads… I
> imagine if you dig hard enough, one of the ASHRAE handbooks probably has
> something along these lines as well that might give you a different sum.
>
>
>
> I think ASHRAE Fundamentals does have a clear thing or two to say regarding
> what percentage of the lighting load should end up in a space vs. a plenum
> when you are talking about different lamp sources (incandescent vs. CFL…) –
> something to be aware of if you want to pursue this avenue.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Joe Snider
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:24 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs
>
>
>
> I have reviewed the archives and found a few threads on this topic but
> couldn’t find either good resolution, or a clear enough string to reply to,
> so I thought I would re-post:
>
>
>
> ASHRAE 90.1 App G doesn’t let you include dwelling units in typical LPD
> calcs.  They say you need to plug in the same number for both proposed and
> baseline.
>
>
>
> But you can apparently pursue exceptional calcs to justify any cost savings
> in LEED.  But you need to show some kind of analysis as to how you chose a
> baseline, such as a study or something presumably that shows typical w /sf
> for residential.
>
>
>
> We have worked very hard to reduce energy use in lighting in a few
> high-rise residential projects and would like to be able to receive credit
> for that on our energy model.
>
>
>
> Has anyone been through this with USGBC and / or know of a good resource
> for a baseline w / sf for residential?
>
>
>
> In advance, thank you very much.  Great forum.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Joe Snider
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Joe Snider, AIA, LEED AP
>
> * *
>
> *SEQUIL Systems, Inc*.
>
> *high performance sustainable structures***
>
>
>
> 1 SE 4th Ave, Suite 205
>
> Delray Beach, FL 33483
>
> t: 561.921.0900
>
> f: 561.208.6090
>
>
>
> www.SEQUIL.com <http://www.sequil.com/>
>
>
>
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