[Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)

Bruce Easterbrook bruce5 at bellnet.ca
Wed Jun 16 08:14:44 PDT 2010


     My last effort with a complex geometry turned out pretty good.  You 
need to do some work before you get going in eQuest.  I only had 3 
floors to do so working off 3 floor plans was enough to keep track of 
the vertices's.  You might consider a 3D wire frame in cad is things are 
real complex and run both programs at the same time with the cad for 
reference as you go.  I added extra zones to my HVAC zones which lined 
up with exterior walls in the floor above.  This makes everything 
removable later, ie the interior roofs which eQuest creates in the 
model.  For angled walls I would put them in square lined up at the 
bottom floor, then tilt them over later and shorten the roof plane to 
intersect.  Voids are a little more tricky, I also created extra zones 
to line up with the voids.  One trick here is to enter the void zone 
last.  Put all the other zones around it first.  This way all the walls 
are attached to the other zones.  The reason is you don't want any 
orphan walls when you delete the void.  You basically delete down to the 
floor, exposing the interior roof on the floor below.  I had planned to 
leave the concrete floor on top of the roof, a minor thermo difference.  
eQuest I thought does not allow you to delete floor areas.  Once all the 
surfaces are gone you can delete the zone and the floor area seems to 
go, the roof will show in the 3D view.  Then change all the interior 
walls to exterior on the zones around the void.  Add an exterior wall in 
the same spot as the interior wall and delete the interior wall.  Use 
the location to place the exterior wall, look at the interior wall, get 
the say, "V2 of the space polygon", select that in the exterior wall and 
eQuest does all the geometry, pick you exterior wall type and you are 
done, delete the interior wall.
     Back to the trick.  I learned the hard way here.  One of my void 
zones ended up with an orphan wall, ie the wall was attached to the zone 
I wanted to delete not the zone which was to have the new exterior 
wall.  The surface of one zone is not called the same thing on the 
adjacent zone.  Also the geometry control point is different on every 
zone.  Every zone _has to be_ a closed surface.   You can't leave the 
orphan wall even though it is correct as far as location, type etc.  It 
looked perfect in 3D.  To eQuest I had 2 zones with holes in them and it 
wouldn't run.  It took a lot of playing to make an exterior wall in the 
other zone and get it in the right place.  Once you get the plane 
surface orientation right, you "just" adjust X,Y to pull it into place.  
Make sure the azimuth is correct, the exterior of the wall has to face 
the outside.  "Just" was over an hour.  Because there is no wall there 
originally I don't think eQuest has a surface polygon set up in the 
space to pick, that was my first try, just started picking polygons 
looking for the correct one.  It didn't seem to exist.  If the wall is 
highlighted in the component tree, you are in 3D, just click your left 
mouse button on the 3D area and your wall will show up in red.  Having 
your vertices's on paper really helps here because you have to be exact 
in the placement.  To add to the complexity, everything is referenced 
off the control point, you have to have it's location too.  Long story 
short, I finally copied the opposite wall, flipped the azimuth 180 
degrees and pulled it into place.  Once you change the azimuth 
everything works backwards.  It was in the wee hours of the morning, I 
was not too sharp by then.  This is an idealized version from foggy memory.
     I added 2 screen shots, 2D, showing the void as eQuest shows it 
after I deleted the zone, and 3D, showing the roof and my fun wall.  I 
did all the roofs as flat, there are actually 3 different cottage roofs, 
2 which intersect, and about another 40% flat roof.  Thermo wise the 
flat roof should be conservative, my model will have a little more 
heating and cooling than required but the occupants will be happy.  A 
little more is better than not enough.  This building operates 24/7, 
some fairly dense occupations in some of the zones, the heating and 
cooling for the outside air dwarfs the roof loads.  Put the zones back 
together for the HVAC, interior walls for geometry can be made air 
walls.  Sounds simple, lol.  Test each shell after you make it to make 
sure the simulation will run, save a copy and do the next shell.  You 
can delete the covered roofs once you get the next shell on. The first 
major step is to get the geometry right, default everything else.  This 
way you can keep going back into the building creation wizard without 
losing any information or any time.  You have to do this every time so 
you can check the 3D view and your wall placements.  Ignore the warning 
eQuest gives you because you haven't put in anything to lose.  Once page 
2 of 25 is good, save another copy and work on pages 3 to 25.  Before 
you do the windows, save a working copy.  You can lose a lot of time and 
information in this area if you have to go back.  Good luck.
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
Abode Engineering

On 16/06/2010 02:17 AM, John Aulbach wrote:
> Is this one of these 30th century looking skyscrapers being built in 
> Shanghai, China? I saw a few renderings and physical models at the San 
> francisco airport this week. I have NO idea how to model them..
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* jra_sac at yahoo.com; ncaton at smithboucher.com; 
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 7:52:54 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)
>
> Thank you John, Nick, and Aaron for your help.
>
> I have read Bruce's posts on complex geometries.
>
> My building has very complex buildilng geometries with different 
> footprints for each floor.
>
> The building has void spaces on few floors and the facades are sloped. 
> That is why it has different building footprints.
>
> I am starting from the DD wizard as all you suggested to me. BUT I am 
> worried whether these complex geometries give me a nearly accurate result.
>
> Any comments on it?
>
> Thank you again.
>
> Jy-Yeon Julie Shin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:12:07 -0700
> From: jra_sac at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
> To: ncaton at smithboucher.com; juyeon519 at hotmail.com; 
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> Nick (and others):
> Thinking it through, 99% of SD stuff is in DD Wizard. DD just allows 
> you to make different floor (and/or building) footprints.
> So I suppose you could start with a DD Wizard and leave it a single 
> footprint, filling in the blanks with contiguous stuff, then making 
> the different floor (or building) shells from there.
> Wish I had more time to speak. 7 models await my shaky hand.
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> *To:* John Aulbach <jra_sac at yahoo.com>; Ju-Yeon Julie Shin 
> <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 12:38:04 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> John (or anyone else),
>
> If you have the time, would you mind explaining/suggesting the 
> efficiencies that might come from starting with SD, then converting to 
> the DD wizards?  Every project I’ve ever performed has been DD from 
> the get-go, and when I have explored SD it appears to my untrained eye 
> to be a kind of linear, simplified version of the DD wizards….
>
> To stick my neck out a bit – I fairly regularly have projects where we 
> start modeling at a stage when space zoning assignments and system 
> arrangements are quite fluid – it can be handy to define every space 
> in the wizard zone maps to allow for full flexibility later on, and 
> this often results in building a shell-per-floor, with each floor 
> receiving a unique zonal space layout.
>
> I wouldn’t dream of trying this approach on a high-rise building, but 
> with projects of up to 3-4 stories, things generally seem manageable.
>
> To Ju-Yeon’s situation (do understand I am one of the less-experienced 
> contributors here):
>
> I would emphasize using as few footprints for your 9-story building as 
> is acceptable.  I would start in the DD wizards, creating a shell for 
> each block of floors using the same footprint.  I’ve read that you can 
> group your hi-rise shells in a way that simplifies things thermally 
> without losing accuracy.
>
> For example, if you have three typical floor plans, and they were 
> ordered as such:  (ground) A,B,A,B,C,C,B,B,B (roof)  - I would suggest 
> building 3 shells as follows:  [A,A],[C,C],[B,B,B,B,B].  In this way, 
> you at most need to define only three sets of everything to start, and 
> you’re simultaneously ensuring the lowermost and highest floors, which 
> receive significantly different envelope loads, have the correct floor 
> plan tied to them.  Remember the systems you define can ultimately be 
> tied to any combination of zones across different shells.
>
> ~Nick
>
> cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> /Check out our new web-site @ /www.smithboucher.com_ _
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *John Aulbach
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:06 PM
> *To:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> Ju-Yeon:
>
> You need to be in the DD Wizard to create different floor footprints. 
> The SD Wizard only allows a single footprint.
>
> I would start in the SD Wizard, getting all of your window/wall roof 
> constructions, general hours of operation, and system type (s). Not 
> knowingwhat your zones will look like, I would set the zoning pattern 
> to one zone per floor (for now).
>
> Once this is set up, then change to DD Wizard to start creating your 
> unique floors. Then you can uniquely set put your zones on a floor by 
> floor basis.
>
> Do you mean EVERY floor footprint is different from the others? This 
> is a very unusual building.
>
> John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM
>
> Senior Energy Engineer
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Partner** **Energy***
>
> 1990 E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245
> W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745
>
> www.ptrenergy.com | jaulbach at ptrenergy.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 1:13:13 AM
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> Hello everyone I am new to eQUEST and have a question about what to use.
>
> The building I am working on has 9 storeys and each single floor 
> footprint is different.
>
> The first three floors are part of a podium building and the rest is 
> office.
>
> In order to create different footprints and finish all the rest of the 
> eQUEST inputs,
>
> 1) do I have to build a first floor on the SD wizard and finish all 
> 40ish pages, AND THEN go to the DD wizard
>
> creating new shells for the rest and new HVAC systems, or
>
> 2) do I just go the the SD wizard from the beginning to create all 
> different building footprints?
>
> Thank you for your help:)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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