[Equest-users] Understanding Floors

Bruce Easterbrook bruce5 at bellnet.ca
Mon Jun 21 17:54:29 PDT 2010


     Just to add to what Pasha and Nick are saying, you can also use 
multiple shells to define a floor.  Each of these shells is composed of 
a base polygon, the space.  Using the DD wizard you can break this space 
into numerous zones or polygons. You can also use the DD wizard to 
re-arrange these zones/polygons in any fashion you choose into different 
HVAC zones.  eQuest will default to 1 HVAC zone per base polygon or 
space.  Using the DD wizard you can create new HVAC units and take zones 
from the base polygon/HVAC system(s) to make new HVAC zones.  This is 
totally separate from the polygons, you are just grouping the polygons 
into a system.
     The beauty of eQuest is the DD wizard and the visual interface to 
create your model with an AutoCad dwg import feature.  This is where the 
human brain blows away any computer on the planet.  The geometry of your 
building is what drives the way you manipulate eQuest to create your 
floors, shells and polygons.  To be efficient you have to take a serious 
look at your building before you start entering data.  Each polygon has 
6 planes which have a thermodynamic exposure.  You have to build your 
building out of these polygons so you get your exposures correct.  The 
floor above will have an impact on how you build the floor below because 
you have to get your exposed surfaces correct, ie roofs, exterior walls.
     The unfortunate part of eQuest is to make it easy you need AutoCad, 
a very expensive program.  But you can use any cad program and build a 
wire-frame to create your vertices's, you just have to input them by 
hand on page 2 but easily doable.  Even with AutoCad I still produce a 
wire-frame to keep track of my input and correct maybe 15% of my cad 
snap points.  Another little trick is to know where all your interior 
polygons/zones are going to intersect your base polygon/space.  When you 
input your base polygon/exterior shell put a vertex at each of these 
intersection points as you go around the exterior.  It will make 
snapping to them much easier later when you enter your zones/polygons.
     Remember computer programs are really dumb.  A to B, B to C...  
eQuest will let you input junk, as long as you follow it's rules, it 
will happily simulate this junk, and of course output junk.  This is 
where Engineering comes in, and it starts with meticulous input from a 
plan, little bricks (polygons) to build a building model.  Take a little 
time at the start to make a plan, do a wire-frame, revise your plan, and 
then go.  It is like chess and you have to think ahead.  If your 
geometry is junk, so is everything else.
     I use the DD wizard extensively and almost exclusively, never edit 
polygons in the detailed edit, rarely edit the INP file, and only for 
tricky things, or I have made a mistake and have to recover from it.  
The DD wizard is a great tool.
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
Abode Engineering

On 21/06/2010 04:57 PM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez wrote:
> So Peter, when you say Floor, you are really referring to "Shell", 
> which is what the right terminology is in terms of eQuest.  Note:  you 
> can define multiple floors within a shell.
> The wizard is not a completely useless tool, and when you set up your 
> buildings (i.e. building footprint & zoning) at the very least can be 
> done super easy in the wizard.  Most of your detail work might need to 
> be done in the detailed edit mode, but don't underestimate the 
> benefits of the wizard inputs too.  Efficiency is key for both the 
> building design and the simulator(s).
> pkg
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Peter Hillermann 
> <e190984026 at exchange.1and1.com <mailto:e190984026 at exchange.1and1.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Sorry wrong terminology. By space I’m going back to what I said
>     “Floor.” When you open eQuest property tab for a designed floor it
>     actually says floor properties. These define the floor to ceiling
>     and roof deck heights. You can place multiple spaces in it and
>     zones. All this applies to detail mode and not the wizards. All my
>     models are created in detail mode I do not use the wizard for
>     anything. So I apologize for any confusion.
>
>     *From:* Demba Ndiaye [mailto:Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com
>     <mailto:Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com>]
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 4:23 PM
>     *To:* Peter Hillermann; 'Pasha Korber-Gonzalez'; 'Sami, Vikram'
>
>     *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     Peter,
>
>     What do you mean by “I can put more than 1 zone into a space”?
>
>     Demba.
>
>     *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of
>     *Peter Hillermann
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 3:13 PM
>     *To:* 'Pasha Korber-Gonzalez'; 'Sami, Vikram'
>     *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     I can put more than 1 zone into a space. When you go to the HVAC
>     tab it will show your building together within that space. The
>     problem I had was overlapping zones, one stacked on top of the
>     other with the same ceiling height so I broke apart my office into
>     2 different floors as you can see by the images. That’s where my
>     question came from.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     *PETER HILLERMANN*
>
>     peterh at westallarchitects.com <mailto:peterh at westallarchitects.com>
>
>     *westall*
>
>     *architects*
>
>     3404 pierce drive
>
>     chamblee, georgia 30341
>
>     o 770.458.4113
>
>     f  770.458.5352
>
>     c 678.898.2936
>
>     westallarchitects.com <http://westallarchitects.com/>
>
>     e-signatureUSGBC-Logo
>
>     *From:* Pasha Korber-Gonzalez [mailto:pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com
>     <mailto:pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com>]
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 2:35 PM
>     *To:* Sami, Vikram
>     *Cc:* Nick Caton; Peter Hillermann;
>     equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     I'm with Vik- I thought it was only one space to one zone, but if
>     someone has a new way of things, please share...
>
>     pkg
>
>     On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Sami, Vikram
>     <Vikram.Sami at perkinswill.com <mailto:Vikram.Sami at perkinswill.com>>
>     wrote:
>
>     Nick,
>
>     How do you group multiple spaces in one zone? I always thought you
>     could do only one space per zone.
>
>     *Vikram Sami*, LEED AP
>
>     Sustainable Design Analyst
>
>     1382 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309
>
>     t: 404-443-7462    f: 404.892.5823     e:
>     vikram.sami at perkinswill.com <mailto:vikram.sami at perkinswill.com>
>     www.perkinswill.com <http://www.perkinswill.com/>
>
>     *Perkins+Will.* Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of
>     society
>
>     *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of
>     *Nick Caton
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 2:00 PM
>
>
>     *To:* Peter Hillermann; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     Hey Peter,
>
>     If by “stack” you mean place one space geometrically over another,
>     the answer is yes.  If you mean to ask whether zones can group
>     spaces in different elevations, the answer is also yes.
>
>     However, I would like to hammer out your wording again to be sure
>     we’re on the same page!  I think you meant to ask “Can you stack a
>     space in a shell?”  Spaces are normally “inside” shells in a
>     geometrical sense, as they are generally within the shell
>     footprint/boundaries.
>
>     Zones, in contrast, have nothing to do with geometries – they are
>     simply groupings of spaces with some extra HVAC/airflow properties
>     tacked on.  Those spaces could be all over the place – at
>     different elevations, within different shells… pretty much any
>     combination from my experience.
>
>     Best of luck!  If you are getting tripped up, remember a picture
>     is worth a thousand questions (?)…
>
>
>     ~Nick
>
>     PS to all:  The SD/DD Wizards are, in my mind, kinda misleading
>     with regard to helping new users understand the distinction
>     between “space” & “zone.”  Some work in detailed mode will
>     eventually lead you to understand, but the Wizard screens
>     inconsistently interchange the terms and may cause others
>     confusion in the long run… See my description below for a simple
>     breakdown if you are cutting your teeth on eQuest ;).
>
>     cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>     * *
>
>     *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
>     PROJECT ENGINEER
>
>     25501 west valley parkway
>
>     olathe ks 66061
>
>     direct 913 344.0036
>
>     fax 913 345.0617
>
>     /Check out our new web-site @ /www.smithboucher.com
>     <http://www.smithboucher.com/>_ _
>
>     *From:* Peter Hillermann [mailto:peterh at westallarchitects.com
>     <mailto:peterh at westallarchitects.com>]
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:40 PM
>     *To:* Nick Caton; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     Nick,
>
>     Thanks again. Can you stack a space in a zone?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     *PETER HILLERMANN*
>
>     peterh at westallarchitects.com <mailto:peterh at westallarchitects.com>
>
>     *westall*
>
>     *architects*
>
>     3404 pierce drive
>
>     chamblee, georgia 30341
>
>     o 770.458.4113
>
>     f  770.458.5352
>
>     c 678.898.2936
>
>     westallarchitects.com <http://westallarchitects.com/>
>
>     *From:* Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com
>     <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>]
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:33 PM
>     *To:* Peter Hillermann; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     Peter, I think you might be leading yourself into some unnecessary
>     confusion with your word choices…
>
>     eQuest has 3 distinct entities:
>
>     - _Shells_ are simply groups of spaces
>
>     - _Spaces_ are geometrical volumes, which may or may not have
>     floors, walls, ceilings, windows, etc. tied to them.  Internal
>     loads / daylighting / occupancies are attributed to spaces.
>
>     - _Zones_ are simple entities that include one or more spaces,
>     with additional HVAC attributes like thermostat and airflow
>     specifics.
>
>     You’re using “floors” to interchangeable discuss all the above, it
>     seems.  For clarity when discussing eQuest, “floors” are merely
>     the constructions we walk on, normally one attribute of a “space.”
>
>     All that said, it’s entirely possible to model a “box within a
>     box,” as you’re describing.  You are limited in the wizards (by
>     their nature) with regard to defining zones/footprints… the best
>     approach depends on the nature of the space footprints you want to
>     model.  If it’s very simply two stacked cubes enclosed within a
>     larger cube, I’d personally model one shell, with one space carved
>     out of the middle.  Then I’d use the detailed mode to shrink that
>     space volume and partition/ceiling dimensions to match the first
>     floor office, then copy the entire space and its componenents for
>     the second floor.  I’d adjust the largest cube’s volume (it’s a
>     space property) to correct the conditioned volume, and be sure all
>     partitions are correctly associating the three spaces together… 
>     With all spaces sorted out, ensure your three spaces are correctly
>     grouped with regard to “zones,” for association with your HVAC
>     system(s).
>
>     Clear as mud =)?
>
>     * *
>
>     *~Nick*
>
>     * *
>
>     cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>     * *
>
>     *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
>     PROJECT ENGINEER
>
>     25501 west valley parkway
>
>     olathe ks 66061
>
>     direct 913 344.0036
>
>     fax 913 345.0617
>
>     /Check out our new web-site @ /www.smithboucher.com
>     <http://www.smithboucher.com/>_ _
>
>     *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of
>     *Peter Hillermann
>     *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 10:56 AM
>     *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>     <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>     *Subject:* [Equest-users] Understanding Floors
>
>     To All,
>
>     I just want to make sure I understand the properties behind
>     floors. If you have a square building volume with a smaller square
>     inside it that has 2 levels. EG:- an atrium as main space with 2
>     levels that are offices. There will be a total of 3 floors in your
>     model. Atrium floor, first floor office and second floor office.
>     Each of these will have a designated floor to floor height. You
>     cannot put one zone inside another on the same floor.
>
>     Is this correct?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     *PETER HILLERMANN*
>
>     peterh at westallarchitects.com <mailto:peterh at westallarchitects.com>
>
>     *westall*
>
>     *architects*
>
>     3404 pierce drive
>
>     chamblee, georgia 30341
>
>     o 770.458.4113
>
>     f  770.458.5352
>
>     c 678.898.2936
>
>     westallarchitects.com <http://westallarchitects.com/>
>
>     e-signatureUSGBC-Logo
>
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