[Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to modelquestion

[Eurek, John S NWO]

I have talked to and received help from Pasha Korber-Gonzalez.  I really
found her helpful (and a pleasure to talk with) 

(A plug for her was the least I could do)

-----Original Message-----
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Paul Brooks
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:44 AM
To: Carol Gardner; Matthew Dubrovich
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to
modelquestion

Carol:
 
I agree, and I am trying to digest all the info I am getting, and also plan
on taking Pasha up on the offer of a phone call.  I also sent an email to
Marlin, (trainer I had for eQuest).
 
The building is still on the drawing obpards, and is to be built in a
duty-free office park in Montevideo, Uruguay.  I am in Richmond, VA.

 

________________________________

From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: Matthew Dubrovich <mdubrovich at emcengineers.com>
Cc: Paul Brooks <equestpaul at yahoo.com>; "equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
<equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Sent: Fri, May 7, 2010 12:18:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to model
question


Hi Paul, 

I think Matt is on to something. It does have options for both and you can
use Equip Control and maybe Load Management commands. This is heady stuff for
a newbie, however, so I would suggest you hire someone to do a peer review
with you or to work with you. 

So, this is an existing building, right? You will also need to bill match,
etc. Where do you actually sit? In Uraguay?

Carol


On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Matthew Dubrovich
<mdubrovich at emcengineers.com> wrote:


	Hi Paul,

	 

	Though I haven't had the opportunity to use either yet, eQuest has
options for both heat recovery chillers and heat pump chillers, correct?  You
can tie the heat recovery chiller into your hot water loop and it should show
both a heating savings and condenser fan savings (eliminating those hand
calcs hopefully).  The heat pump chillers can be sequenced through Equipment
Controls and Load Management to only come on as necessary, after the 165 ton
chiller is maxed out.  Coupling the heat pumps with your hot water system may
be more of a challenge.  Good luck.

	 

	Matt

	 

	From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Paul Brooks
	Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:26 AM
	To: Carol Gardner 

	Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
	
	Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump
to model question

	 

	Yes, I did.

	 

	Yes, it is an air-cooled Trane Chiller that has total energy
recovery.  It is a non-US product, made by Trane in Europe.  

	 

	The concept is that the chiller provids chilled water, and the energy
recovery side provides hot water for reheat at VAV boxes when needed.

	 

	In addition, there are two heat pumps (reversible chillers as the
liturature says)that will pprovide additional capacity to etther the chilled
water loop or the hot water loop as needed.

	 

	This is for a 110,000 sf high end office building in Uruguay.
Uruguay is ASHRAE climate zone 3, similar to the US southeast, primarily
Georga/northern Florida.

	 

	Links to product information:

	  

	Chiller with energy recovery:
http://doc.trane-eur.com/marketing/cdtrane.nsf/PdfByName/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.p
df/$file/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.pdf

	 

	Heat pumps:
http://doc.trane-eur.com/Marketing/CdTrane.nsf/PdfByName/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pd
f/$file/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pdf

	 

	I am thinking i will need to do a lot of hand calcs for energy use of
the chiller and how much "free" heating water I will get.  the hard part is
going to be how to account for saving by not running condenser fans.  Yes, it
will be a challenge to get it through GBCI review, but if the logic is sound,
it will not be that hard.

	 

	Any suggestions on how to wet up a model in eQuest to minimize amount
of hand calculations?

	
	 

	 

	
________________________________


	From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
	To: Paul Brooks <equestpaul at yahoo.com>
	Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
	Sent: Fri, May 7, 2010 1:54:56 AM
	Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump
to model question
	
	It looks like you stunned everyone into silence, Paul.
	
	So you have 1) an air cooled chiller, 2) heat recovery sending HW to
only your reheat coils, 3) 2 air cooled heat pumps that can also provide cool
or hot water to circulation loops, 4)  french hens, and a partridge in a pear
treee...OOPS, its late!
	
	This looks like entropy to me. Try once more to share all of this. I
would suggest an itemized list that identifies the equipment type, it's
specific use, it's model no. etc. and any comments. Maybe an excel
spreadsheet would work best. 
	
	Another issue: this project will be neigh on impossible for a LEED
reviewer to review, too. That is neither good or bad, it just is. 
	
	I will help you as I can, when I can, but I must work for food too.
Nobody pays me, yet, to help anyone.
	
	Keep the faith,
	Carol

	On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Paul Brooks <equestpaul at yahoo.com>
wrote:

	I am modeling a building in Uruguay that has a Trane 165 ton Air
cooled chiller, (RTAD 165 SE, not available in US.)  In addition to
air-cooling, the chiller has a heat exchanger to recover heat for whatever
use you want.   Obviously the heat recovery means that in the right
condisitons the condenser fans will not run as much.

	 

	For this application, the heat is to be recovered to provide heating
hot water VAV box re-heat coils.  In addition to this, there are two air
cooled heat pumps (CXAN 214, not available in US) that are available to
augment the chiller or the hot wateer loop.

	 

	So, my dilemma, is how to model this in eQuest. I am still more or
less a novice user.  I am in the detail mode, and see that I can do some
things with condenser water, but then how do I model the condenser fans?  How
do I tie in the heat pump loops?

	 

	Lastly, this is a LEED model.  So, any thoughts on how to get data
and then do hand calcs to prove savings are also welcome.    

	 

	Thanks!

	 

	If interestede in seeing info on the equipment, go to Trane-eur.com
<http://trane-eur.com/> .  information is available in english for these
models. Your local trane rep will probably not be able to help.

	 

	
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