[Equest-users] Energy Modeling Fees

[John David Waller]

On a similar topic, is anyone aware of any contractual verbiage that
outlines exactly what energy modeling is, or perhaps more importantly, is
not?

Ultimately the architect is responsible when a building doesn't perform or
function as designed, but when these instances end up in the courtroom he
inevitably drags his consultants and the contractor in with him, all of
which have some serious contracts to protect and indemnify them from any
mistakes arising from the very thing they do for a living, with language
that pushes the blame on the myriad of other professionals involved in the
process.  The safest of which seem to be the operators and maintainers of
such 'high performance' facilities typically with job qualifications that
require a high school diploma and 3 years experience.  Often these are
larger consulting firms who make it practice to hire similarly qualified
individuals.

Of the three general stages of a buildings life-cycle, design (conception),
construction (birth) and operations and maintenance (life), it is the last
which ultimately determine the health and longevity of the building, and
which are in most cases responsible for its short-lived path to death
(demolition).  I would go as far to say say that it is the O&M stage that is
the most important of the three, that in design, it is easy to offer a
'plan' suggesting how the building should look and operate, that in
construction, it is slightly less easy to build it according to the
conceived 'plan', but that in O&M it is the most difficult to actually make
it perform and function according to the 'plan' produced by a profession
responsible for designing a thing, that if we are being honest with
ourselves, know the least about how said thing is practically put together,
is to be operated, and would perform in reality as opposed to black lines on
white bond. Harsh perhaps, but the truth.

Following this train of thought, perhaps the building should be 'designed'
backwards, from the understood 'end' to the accepted 'beginning',
considering function, performance, operations and even maintenance as
initial design criteria and appearance as whatever it may end up being (like
how it is done now with building systems).  But it is the O&M of the
building that is so closely tied to energy modeling, and the O&M of the
building that the least real attentions are paid at great financial expense
to the owner, and as well often incurred by the architect, the engineer, the
contractor and yes, the energy modeler when it doesn't perform as
'planned'.  Let's not allow ourselves to be dragged into that courtroom.

If the answer to my original question is 'no', then perhaps it is time to
clearly define the word 'simulation' in contractual terms, if the answer is
'yes', then perhaps there is a need to do so more clearly and tie it into
the O&M stage of the process. These programs we use run on windows operating
system , some actually work on a Mac OX, but none that I am aware of, are
compatible yet with the 'CB-OX'. (the crystal ball oprtating system)

John


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you Pasha and Wayne for your clarity. I have had both the $4,000
> client and the $48,000 client. I know I lost my shirt, well at least a great
> deal of my time, on the little guy. I would be willing to be that the
> $48,000 client didn't do so well either. We have a LEED platinum building
> here in Portland that I know of that has more problems than you would ever
> guess. Who do you think pays for the fixes? Probably the same firm that the
> energy analyst was form. I'm just saying...
>
> Carol
>
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Wayne Seward <wayne at beartechnologys.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hi Pasha, John, and all;
>>
>>
>>
>> Fees, what to charge, always an interesting question?
>>
>>
>>
>> I always start by answering two basic questions. 1)Do I understand what is
>> required to do the job and do I know exactly what it well take to complete
>> the job? 2) I have a relative idea of what is needed to complete the job and
>> I'm not really sure what it well take to complete it? And a third one that I
>> try not to forget is always the past history with the customer?  There are
>> basically two approaches that I take to pricing a project,
>> Time-and-Materials or Fixed price. Time-and-Materials I use when I have more
>> questions than answers, and Fixed price is used when I have a strong
>> understanding of what I need to do and then how long I believe it will take
>> me to accomplish it. So that is my starting point to every job.
>>
>>
>>
>> This next is related to the type of job that I'm performing. This comes
>> with a larger number of variables, such as the building type. Residential,
>> Non-residential, non-res office space verses medical facilities, single
>> family residential or multi-family residential, etc. Also, new construction
>> or existing retrofit. Size and level of complexity also come into play and
>> the specific task that I'm being asked to complete. Next I look at the type
>> of modeling that I'm working on (Compliance documentation, supporting or
>> recommendations for design decisions, or High-level Performance Modeling &
>> Analysis).
>>
>>
>>
>>  My fees start as low as $250 (clearly the easy job with the lowest risk
>> of failure) and as high as $9,000. I'm currently consider some work that I'm
>> think of asking $15,000 plus (highest risk of failure to date). Risk of
>> failure is always an important consideration on any job. The risk of failure
>> could be nothing more than  re-working the job on your dime or as
>> complicated as getting sued for everything that you hope to ever have. We
>> have to figure out what our comfort level is in this area before we can
>> figure out what kind of work we are willing to take on. For me the lowest
>> risk is Compliance Documentation, and clearly the highest level of risk is
>> doing High-Level Performance Modeling & Analysis.
>>
>>
>>
>> The last factor that I consider, is what will the market bare? No matter
>> what we do, somebody will come in with a lower price and another will have a
>> higher price. I always try to understand what I think my efforts are worth
>> and if someone comes in with a lower price, then I have to decide if the
>> work is important enough for me to give something away. To me this has to be
>> a well thought out decision and not a decision that I make easily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pricing a job can sometimes be as complicated as some of the work that we
>> do.
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently saw a financial breakdown of a LEED project. The LEED
>> Consultant was paid $60,000 plus, and the Building Energy Analyst Modeler
>> fees ranged from $2,500 to $48,000 per LEED project. I need to find a couple
>> of those $48,000 jobs :=)
>>
>>
>>
>> If you notice I didn't specify my exact fees for any given thing. But I
>> hope that I've shed some light onto my approach to the problem. However, I
>> would be happy to work with any members of this group to develop a standard
>> fee basis. I'm sure we've all spent a lot of time and money getting to this
>> point and we continue spending money on continuing Ed & better tools. We
>> should all get a far wage for our level of experience and quality of work. I
>> don't have a problem losing work to someone that does a better job than I
>> do, but I do have a problem with losing work to someone with less experience
>> because they charge less for the same work.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this makes since as it is now past midnight and I'm getting up in
>> five hours. If you see holes with my thinking, then please share some of
>> your approaches or ideas.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your time.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wayne Seward, CEA, LEED AP BD&C*
>>
>> Bear Technologys
>>
>> 7774 Calle Mejor, Carlsbad, CA 92009
>>
>> Office: 760.635.2327 Fax: 760.683.6889
>>
>> www.beartechnologys.com
>>
>> wayne at beartechnologys.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *a Service-Connected Disabled-Veteran Owned Business*
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Pasha
>> Korber-Gonzalez
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 24, 2010 7:40 PM
>> *To:* John David Waller
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Energy Modeling Fees
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am soooo glad that you asked about this.  I would be more than happy to
>> talk with you and the rest of our energy modeling community about how to
>> price energy models, how to calculate & justify fees for energy models, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a VERY important discussion that needs to happen amongst this
>> group and amongst our colleagues regarding the true value of our services
>> and the value that clients are willing to pay for our services.
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you want to know?  What do you want to discuss?  I usually start
>> with a couple of baseline factors that I use as targets when I put together
>> fees for the projects that I bid on;  $/sq ft, $/hour, but as everything is
>> with energy models..."it depends."
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's talk about this...  we can talk online or feel free to email me
>> offline, or call me at 308-763-1593.
>>
>>
>>
>> As a bottom line--I will offer that at a base fee to cover 40 hrs worth of
>> billable work for any type of energy model at an average cost estimate of
>> $100/hr which is a good average for most consulting companies billable
>> rates.  Based on this very rarely should any energy model fee come in under
>> $4000 just based on the amount of work that needs to be done on even simple
>> models.   Of course your overall price/cost/fees need to be based on a
>> specific scope of work for whatever the energy model will be used for.
>>
>> If there are others out there that have experience with energy model fees
>> please comment.  My base rule of thumb is this;  "if you give your client a
>> low fee the first time around, they will expect it everytime."  Once you
>> charge low fees for your services you will not be able to raise them as your
>> customers will expect low fees everytime.  Not only do "low-ballers" hurt
>> themselves but they hurt all of us in the industry.   All of us as
>> simulators know the amount of time & skill that it takes to learn how to use
>> these programs and how to execute projects successfully using these
>> programs.  If we are sending out low fees for these services we are severly
>> undervaluing our own work and giving our clients the wrong impression.  As
>> the art of negotiation is something that we work on everyday, it's better to
>> always start with the fee that you want, and then tailor, customize,
>> negotiate to a fee that you & the client can accept.  Maybe they don't get
>> as much work as they wanted, maybe you get a bit more in your fee than the
>> client planned to pay.  Win-win for all...when it all works out right.  ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Pasha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:14 AM, John David Waller <
>> jwaller at email.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Would anyone be willing to share what a 'fair market fee' for energy
>> modeling services might look like?
>>
>>
>>
>> I realize that there are many variables involved in defining the cost of
>> such services, i.e. level of detail, stage in the design process, size of
>> the project, etc... I am an eQUEST pleeb, and seek only to determine
>> reasonable rates for this service and ones that won't scare any potential
>> clients away.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Equest-users mailing list
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
>> EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Equest-users mailing list
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
>> EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100525/2f1d5672/attachment-0001.htm>