[Equest-users] Zoning Issue

RJTHEACMAN at aol.com RJTHEACMAN at aol.com
Wed Nov 10 14:42:50 PST 2010
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Thanks for all your help.
 
 
In a message dated 11/10/2010 1:32:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
ncaton at smithboucher.com writes:

 
Someone  asked me a pointed question and I’d had to misguide anyone.  Added 
an  extra line to my response below to clarify my position. 

I  also remembered that you won’t be able to actually view that particular  
“mini-guide” in the archives I referenced as it was all pictorial –  
sorry!  I’ve re-attached the guide pictures and copied the discussion  that 
prompted it below for your reference. 
~Nick 
 
 
NICK  CATON, E.I.T. 
PROJECT  ENGINEER 
25501  west valley parkway 
olathe  ks 66061 
direct  913 344.0036 
fax  913 345.0617 
Check  out our new web-site @ _www.smithboucher.com_ 
(mip://02852dd8/www.smithboucher.com)   
 
 
From:  equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org  
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick  Caton
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:25 AM
To:  Brian Fountain; RJTHEACMAN at aol.com;  equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users]  Zoning Issue

In  full support of Brian’s response, I’d add one extra tidbit:    
Post-wizards,  I would generally take the “delete the wall” approach 9 
times out of 10  without a second thought.  In the event you do feel the mass 
of the  common wall has a significant thermal lag effect you don’t want to 
eliminate  in your model, I’d advise still just deleting the wall and bumping 
up the  value for the furniture mass (located under the contents tab for the 
space in  question). 
Creating  an interior wall to match a wizard-generated exterior (which I’ve 
written a  mini guide on, btw – see  attached pictures and discussion 
copied below)  is something I’d generally only advocate if model aesthetics are 
critical (the  3D view).  The  exception is where you are talking about being 
adjacent to a space of  significantly different conditioning – in that case 
creating an interior wall  and tying the spaces together would be a very 
sensible thing to pursue from a  modeled accuracy perspective.   Deleting  the 
wall surface entirely is a quick solution, but has the side effect of  
giving you superman-like xray vision powers when in the 3D view… this has  
raised eyebrows in my experience and I have had to explain the modeled  behavior 
is not what it looks like. 
Personally,  I reserve and maintain the right to make ugly models whenever 
it saves me time  and doesn’t hinder accuracy, but to each his/her own ;). 
~Nick 
 
 
NICK  CATON, E.I.T. 
PROJECT  ENGINEER 
25501  west valley parkway 
olathe  ks 66061 
direct  913 344.0036 
fax  913 345.0617 
Check  out our new web-site @ _www.smithboucher.com_ 
(mip://02852dd8/www.smithboucher.com)   
 
 
From:  equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org  
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Brian  Fountain
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:44 AM
To:  RJTHEACMAN at aol.com; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re:  [Equest-users] Zoning Issue

You will have to define the common wall as an "adiabatic"  interior 
partition -- no heat transfer and no solar load.  In the wizard  you can do this by 
clicking on the wall (in Shell screen 2 of the DD wizard)  and then 
selecting adiabatic.  In detailed mode you can also delete a  exterior wall and 
then create an interior partition of type adiabatic.   You could also simply 
delete the common wall -- this also has no solar and no  conduction load.  The 
only thing this does is decreases the room's  thermal mass slightly (not of 
significance likely).  

There is no  way to create and interior partition and to force the 
temperature of the  adjacent space -- you would have to create the "next to" zone if 
you really  want to model heat transfer between new and existing.  Unless 
the  occupancies are significantly different, the impact of conduction across 
that  wall is likely negligible.

Good luck.

BF

On 11/10/2010  10:36 AM, _RJTHEACMAN at aol.com_ (mailto:RJTHEACMAN at aol.com)  
wrote:  
 
I am modeling an  addition to an existing building. The new addition has 
three perimeter  exposures and the fourth exposure is up against the existing 
building, which  is a conditioned space.

How do I tell equest that one of my exposures  is not a perimeter wall but 
it is basically a partition with a conditioned  space adjacent to it?

Thanks

Richard J. Dominick, P.E.
TEC  Engineers LLC.
The Energy Consultant
304 Main Avenue, Suite  426
Norwalk, CT. 06851
Phone: 203-722-5206
Fax:  203-849-0781
 
 
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From: Nick Caton  
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Nick Caton;  Sami, Vikram; Reba Schaber;  
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] make  exterior wall an interior wall 
Alright  folks… 
This is one of a number of  things I really wish someone walked me through 
when I was new to this – so pay  attention if you’re learning =)! 
Attached images are a “visual  guide” walking you through changing an 
external surface into an adiabatic  internal surface in detailed mode.  It took 
me 10 minutes to pull these  together, but 99% of that was spent 
creating/naming the images.  The  process is simple. 
Also, If anyone can  answer this:  Is there any plan or consideration to 
have images and other  attachments like this included in the mailing list 
archives for future  reference?  I think it’s a bummer that so many miss out on 
really  important email attachments (excel tools, example files, studies, 
and other  time savers).  If it were possible, I and others might be more 
inclined  to generate this sort of “mini-guide” visual response knowing others 
could  find and reference such information in the future.  
~Nick 
 
NICK CATON,  E.I.T. 
PROJECT  ENGINEER 
25501 west  valley parkway 
olathe ks  66061 
direct 913  344.0036 
fax 913  345.0617 
Check out  our new web-site @ _www.smithboucher.com_ 
(mip://02852dd8/www.smithboucher.com)   
From:  equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org  
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick  Caton
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:07 AM
To: Sami,  Vikram; Reba Schaber; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject:  Re: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall 
As further clarification, 
If you delete any wall/ceiling/roof, you (1) remove both a  source of heat 
storage (thermal mass) while also (2) removing any heat  transfer across 
that surface.  As a caution:  Losing the first  effect can be a lot more 
significant that you might assume, depending on what  you’re looking into. 
If you instead change any interior surface type to  “adiabatic” (in the 
same wizard/detailed places you might select “air” or  “internal”), you will 
remove heat transfer while retaining the thermal mass of  the construction. 
 This may be the best route when trying to study a  perimeter classroom in 
isolation, for example. 
Quirky thing is, you can’t change an exterior surface type  (roof/floor/wal
l) to adiabatic, so as Vikram is saying you have to first  create an 
interior surface, copying across the geometrical properties  (polygon, vertices, 
azimuth…), then delete the exterior surface.  Make  sure to define and assign 
an interior surface construction (layers) if the  Wizards haven’t already 
set this up for you. 
~Nick 
 
NICK CATON,  E.I.T. 
PROJECT  ENGINEER 
25501 west  valley parkway 
olathe ks  66061 
direct 913  344.0036 
fax 913  345.0617 
Check out  our new web-site @ _www.smithboucher.com_ 
(mip://02852dd8/www.smithboucher.com)   
-----Original Message-----
From:  equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org  
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Sami,  Vikram
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:20 PM
To: Reba Schaber;  equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] make  exterior wall an interior wall 
Reba, 
If you've gone through the wizard your interior and  exterior walls should 
be in tehir correct places. 
Interioir walls should separate two spaces, and will  define heat transfer 
between those two spaces. You normally have to define  which space is on the 
other side. 
Exterior walls define heat transfer between the space  and the outside. 
If you are in detailed mode, you can delete one and  create the other as a 
child component to the space. When you say large air  space - is that the 
air cavity in the wall? I'm not sure what resistance  eQUEST attributes to the 
larger air gaps, but in reality air cavities over a  certain size (I think 
1 inch is probably the upper threshold) increase their  convective heat 
transfer and the cavity resistance should go down (not  up). 
If your just looking to make it adiabatic, I think you  should be fine with 
just deleting the wall. You will lose the thermal mass of  the wall 
material though. 
I would model it as an interior wall - especially if  there is a space on 
the other side. 
________________________________ 
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org  
[equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Reba Schaber  [Rschaber at PHMECH.COM] 
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:43 PM 
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org 
Subject: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior  wall 
I’m running a simulation on just a portion of a  building.  eQuest sees all 
walls of the polygon as exterior walls.   In reality some walls are 
interior and will not have heat transfer.  Is  there any way to make eQuest see 
those walls as interior walls?  I’ve  thought of defining those walls with 
super insulation and a large air space so  heat transfer is negligible.  Anyone 
tried that? 
Reba  Schaber      Mechanical Engineer, P.E. 
LEED Accredited Professional 
This email and any files transmitted with it are  confidential and intended 
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not disseminate, distribute, copy, or alter this  email. 
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