[Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assemblyv/s Glass only

Pasha Korber-Gonzalez pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com
Wed Aug 3 11:10:54 PDT 2011


Hi Omar--  one addition;

if you are in detailed edit mode you don't have the option to choose "NFRC
method" so what  this means for you is that you have to use the U-value
input method ('simplified' not 'glass library) and then in your navigation
tree go to a window and click on it and go to spreadsheet mode.   In
spreadsheet mode, find the "frame width" property and notice if it has a
frame width or if it is 0.00.    You will want it all set to 0.00 since your
Appendix A value includes the frame effects already.

Cheers,
Pasha

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez <
pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Omar,
>
> I apologize it took so long for me to look at this too for you.  My own
> project deadlines have me running...
>
> Here is what I know and interpret from your situation and the thread that
> has been created from this discussion.
>
> 1) for LEED you will have to submit constructions specifications for both
> the selected/installed glazing (glass only) AND the frame systems.  In most
> cases you can get tables from the frame mfg that will show how the Assembly
> U-value is derated with the frame performance on top of the glass
> performance values.  You should try and get these tables from the fram mfg
> if you can (i.e. Kawneer, or other).
>
> 2)  These window systems in the US are typically NFRC rated, but by my
> experience window systems outside the US are not NFRC rated....yours are
> most likely not NFRC rated;  this forces you to the Appendix A tables to get
> your proposed *assembly* U-value that you have to use.   Yes this will be
> worse performing than your baseline value and thus shall reduce your
> proposed model energy savings--in accordance with LEED modeling requirements
> (and Appendix G.)
>
> 3)  From the perspective of eQuest.   When you are in the wizard you can
> specify your glass/window performance in the wizard mode.   When you do this
> you can choose "NFRC U-value" or "U-value".  When you use the NFRC U-value
> method, then eQuest will take this value to account for the frame effects
> and thus you do not have to specify frame data in your model inputs.   If
> you choose the U-value method, then this represents the glass (center of
> glass) U-value only, and doesn't account for frame properties or
> performance.  This info comes from the help files for eQuest/DOE-2.2.  The
> only difference in eQuest is that using the U-value method assisgns a frame
> width to the input properties  NFRC U-value method sets frame width input
> value at 0.00.
>
> Recommendation:   Based what I can pick up on your dilemma, I suggest the
> following--   Use the U-value from Appendix A and model this in your
> proposed case model.    For your eQuest input, select NFRC method (frame
> width = 0.0) because the appendix A data is for *assembly* factors
> including the frame effects with the glass.
>
> 4) Resubmit to LEED that your proposed U-value was incorrectly applied
> initially and then reference the Appendix A table data that you used in your
> updated model since your projecd doesn't have NFRC rated fenestration
> assemblies.
>
> Hope that helps,  Cheers,
>
> Pasha
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Omar Katanani <omar at ecoconsulting.net>wrote:
>
>>  Indeed there are many ways to model windows! I am kind of lost on how to
>> proceed.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I’m going to directly response to the Review comment by arguing
>> that eQUEST captures frame effects.
>>
>>
>>
>> *“It is It is unclear whether the window U-value of 0.26 and SHGC of 0.28
>> used for the Proposed case accounts for the impact of the window frames on
>> the whole assembly as required by ASHRAE modeling protocol. Please provide
>> additional information to confirm that the framed assembly U-value was used
>> for the Proposed case windows (e.g. showing that the whole window assembly
>> has been tested by NFRC, or verifying that LBNL Window5 calculations have
>> been provided for the whole assembly, or verifying that the frame effects
>> are captured within the energy modeling software), or revise the model
>> referencing ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Table A8.2 if needed.”*
>>
>>
>>
>> I mean, I got 1 or 2 responses in this thread arguing that eQUEST does
>> indeed capture frame effects. The issue is that no single manufacturer has
>> heard of NFRC in Lebanon (and there are no documented standards on frames in
>> Lebanon), and U-values of Table A8.2 are much, much higher than what’s
>> proposed, so using these A8.2 values in my proposed case will increase my
>> energy consumption considerably!
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Omar
>>
>> ___________________________
>>
>> Omar Katanani
>> Sustainable Design Engineer
>>
>> Email: omar at ecoconsulting.net
>>
>>
>>
>> EcoConsulting (Lebanon)
>>
>> Nahas Building, 4th floor
>>
>> 4 St-Maron Street / Georges Haddad Avenue
>>
>> Postal Code: 2028 5806 SAIFI
>>
>> Beirut, Lebanon
>>
>> Tel:          +961 (0) 1 971 266
>> Mobile:    +961 (0) 3 045 045
>>
>>
>>
>> EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd
>> 28 Marshalsea Road
>> London, SE1 1HF
>> Tel:  +44 (0) 207 939 0989
>> Fax:  +44 (0) 207 939 0981
>>
>> Website: www.ecoconsulting.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Robinson
>> *Sent:* 02 August 2011 21:24
>> *To:* R B; eQUEST Users List
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assemblyv/s Glass only
>>
>>
>>
>> There are, it seems, a multitude of ways people on this forum go about
>> modeling windows. It would be interesting to know, in terms of a LEED
>> review, what others have been required to provide in terms of modeling the
>> windows. Does anyone have experience on the Canadian side of the border what
>> is required?  Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Brad Robinson
>>
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* R B <slv3sat at gmail.com>
>> *To:* eQUEST Users List <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2011 11:29:31 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assembly v/s Glass only
>>
>> Came across this in eQuest help - basically suggests to use zero frame
>> width.
>>
>> -Rohini
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Volume 2: Dictionary > Envelope Components > WINDOW > Window Frames and
>> Skylight Curbs
>> *FRAME-WIDTH*
>>
>> Projected width of the frame in the plane of the glazing (Figure 27). We
>> recommend that frames be entered only if the frame area is more than 10
>> percent or so of the glazed area, which is generally only the case in
>> residential applications. The program assumes that the frame width is the
>> same on all sides of the window. If this is not the case, use the average
>> frame width.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Alex Krickx <akrickx at seriousenergy.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Great thread-
>>
>>
>>
>> To answer Vikram’s question - When using WINDOW, you are slightly limited
>> in the output file (for example, if I create an NFRC-type model to figure
>> out U-value for a curtainwall system, I will need to simply the window to
>> export it into a DOE-2 report format). When you do import a WINDOW Report
>> for DOE-2 into eQUEST it does not load any frame information with it – it
>> presents the COG glass performance. My process is to adjust the spacer type
>> and frame width+conductance to make an object that matches what WINDOW tells
>> me my window performance is.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t model for LEED, so am less familiar with what is required for that
>> – since I work for a window manufacturer I usually have access to all the
>> data I need to determine frame-inclusive u-value and SHGCs, i.e. no need to
>> rely on 90.1 defaults.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since the conversation was about using NFRC data – let me ask this
>> question: NFRC data for windows (curtainwall assemblies included) is for a
>> “default” size. I believe for curtainwall a mulled unit is modeled at 2m x
>> 2m (or 78.54” x 78.54”) – as shown below:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is an example, but let’s say that the NFRC value is U-0.34. If your
>> building has a smaller or larger window (which will change the
>> glass-to-frame ratio) the U-value will be different.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it still appropriate to use the NFRC value in that case, where it is
>> entered as a frame-inclusive U-factor and SHGC? I’m curious as to how others
>> approach this issue when dealing with models for compliance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Alex Krickx
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex Krickx, LEED AP
>>
>> Building Energy Specialist
>>
>> Serious Energy, Inc.
>>
>> 1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089
>>
>> (t) 408.541.8124
>>
>> akrickx at seriousenergy.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments may be
>> confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient then you have received it in error and any review, distribution or
>> copying of this message and any attachments is prohibited and you are to
>> notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete immediately this
>> message and any attachments.*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Sami, Vikram
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2011 1:39 PM
>> *To:* Robby Oylear; Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner
>>
>>
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assembly v/s Glass only
>>
>>
>>
>> Firstly – congratulations to all contributors – I think this is probably
>> the first time (that I recall) that all of the posts on this list have been
>> on a single thread. I couldn’t resist being a part of this so I’m going to
>> add my 2 cents:
>>
>>
>>
>> 90.1 baseline values & SHGC are assembly u-values so your frame needs to
>> be calculated into this. To get the derated value – you could either use the
>> handy little XL spreadsheet that comes with the install of eQUEST (under the
>> data\window folder) called eQUEST-DOE2 Glass Library.xls. This gives you COG
>> values *AND* glass+frame NFRC values. They have separate table where it
>> is sorted by U-value and SHGC – I use it all the time (screenshot below).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So you can select your values in conjunction with the values below from
>> the DOE2 help file to get what you need.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>> Frame Type*
>>
>> *FRAME-CONDUCT (excludes OA film)*
>>
>> *
>> U-valuea*
>>
>> Thermally unbroken aluminum
>>
>> 3.037 (17.24)
>>
>> 1.90 (10.79)
>>
>> Thermally broken aluminum
>>
>> 1.245 (7.07)
>>
>> 1.00 (5.68)
>>
>> External flush glazed aluminum
>>
>> 0.812 (4.61)
>>
>> 0.70 (3.97)
>>
>> Wood with or without cladding
>>
>> 0.434 (2.46)
>>
>> 0.40 (2.27)
>>
>> Vinyl
>>
>> 0.319 (1.81)
>>
>> 0.30 (1.70)
>>
>> a U-value includes OA film at 15 mph [6.7 m/s] windspeed
>>   FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)-1 - 0.197]-1 Btu/ft2-F-h
>>   FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)-1 - 0.035]-1 W/m2-K
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * *
>>
>> Alternately, you can select a COG value to match what you want, set your
>> frame to zero and your spacer to UE-EQ-UC (this will give you a uniform COG
>> conductance across the assembly).
>>
>>
>>
>> I am curious about LBNL window imports. When you set up your assembly in
>> window – it includes frames, but you import it in as a glass type – should
>> you zero out the frame (as in the second case) if you import from window?
>>
>>
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *Vikram Sami*, LEED AP BD+C
>>
>> Sustainable Design Analyst
>>
>> 1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309
>>
>> t: 404-443-7462    f: 404.892.5823       e: vikram.sami at perkinswill.com
>> www.perkinswill.com
>>
>> *Perkins+Will.*  Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of
>> society
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Robby Oylear
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2011 4:18 PM
>> *To:* Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assembly v/s Glass only
>>
>>
>>
>> From the 90.1 User's Manual pg 5-12:
>>
>>
>>
>> "With Addendum 90.1ag (published
>>
>> with Standard 90.1-2001) glazed wall
>>
>> systems, including glass curtain walls used
>>
>> on large buildings, storefront glazing
>>
>> systems, and other similar products that
>>
>> are assembled at the construction site, as
>>
>> opposed to at the factory, must either be
>>
>> rated using NFRC procedures or the
>>
>> default U-factor, SHGC and VLT from
>>
>> Table A8.2. Since the performance values
>>
>> in Table A8.1A are based on uncoated
>>
>> clear glass in poorly performing metal
>>
>> frame, they do not offer any credit for
>>
>> low-e coatings, thermal break frames or
>>
>> any other advanced feature. In general,
>>
>> values from Table A8.1A will not achieve
>>
>> compliance with the fenestration
>>
>> requirements.
>>
>> The NFRC procedure for site-built
>>
>> fenestration is described in NFRC 100.
>>
>> The NFRC ratings are based on computer
>>
>> simulations of various product options at
>>
>> standard sizes. (For curtain walls, the
>>
>> standard size specified is 2000 mm by
>>
>> 2000 mm, or approximately 79 in. by 79
>>
>> in.) Multiple glass options can be included
>>
>> in one simulation matrix. The entire
>>
>> simulation matrix is then validated by a
>>
>> single physical test at the standard size. If
>>
>> the matrix for a product has previously
>>
>> been validated, then a new glass option
>>
>> can be added to the matrix by simulation
>>
>> alone. Simulations and tests must be done
>>
>> by an NFRC-accredited simulation and
>>
>> test laboratories."
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, the LEED Reference Guide for Green Building Design and Construction,
>> pg 275 specifically references Tables A8.1 and A8.2 or requires that the
>> products be certified and labeled in accordance with NFRC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not seeing any statements that would allow the modeler to perform their
>> own fenestration assembly performance calculations.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Robby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Bill Talbert <btalbert at aeieng.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Regarding Omar’s first question, I would also clarify that adding a frame
>> to the baseline is probably not the correct approach unless you are
>> adjusting the U-value to a center of glass value and accounting for the
>> frame and edge effects such that the total fenestration performance is equal
>> to the 90.1 prescribed value.
>>
>>
>>
>> ‘They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width
>> of your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.’
>>
>>
>>
>> Baseline Table 5.5-1 through 5.5-8 specify ‘fenestration assembly’ values
>> which include the effect of the frames and edge of glass. Modeling a frame
>> in the Baseline will further degrade the overall fenestration U-value
>> (unless your frame outperforms the glazing) and result in overestimating the
>> savings relative to the fenestration performance. If you use the Table
>> values for your window performance, frames shouldn’t be included. If you
>> include a frame, you should create a 90.1 compliant product using WINDOW and
>> use the appropriate frame and glazing performance values as eQuest inputs
>> such that your overall frame and glazing performance matches the A90.1 Table
>> value.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Bill Talbert**  *PE, LEED® AP
>> Sustainable
>>
>>
>>
>> *AEI* | AFFILIATED ENGINEERS, INC.
>> 5802 Research Park Boulevard | Madison, WI  53719
>>
>> P: 608.441.6677 | C: 608.234.3803 | F: 608.238.2614
>> btalbert at aeieng.com  |  *www.aeieng.com*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Carol Gardner
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2011 1:35 PM
>> *To:* Robby Oylear
>>
>>
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assembly v/s Glass only
>>
>>
>>
>> This came off of the Window website:
>>
>> WINDOW 6.3 is a publicly available computer program for calculating total
>> window thermal performance indices (i.e. U-values, solar heat gain
>> coefficients, shading coefficients, and visible transmittances). WINDOW 6.3
>> provides a versatile heat transfer analysis method consistent with the
>> updated rating procedure developed by the National Fenestration Rating
>> Council (NFRC) that is consistent with the ISO 15099 standard. The program
>> can be used to design and develop new products, to assist educators in
>> teaching heat transfer through windows, and to help public officials in
>> developing building energy codes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robby Oylear <robbyoylear at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to take exception to this:
>>
>> "As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be
>> good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for
>> the entire window."
>>
>>
>>
>> From my first response:
>>
>> In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must
>> comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007.  Section 5.4.2
>> Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined
>> per section 5.8.2.  Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for
>> the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in
>> accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values
>> from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.
>>
>>
>>
>> NFRC values for the glazing alone not "good enough".  This is exactly what
>> the reviewer is trying to get at.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd hardly call NFRC certification rare.  In the State of Washington NFRC
>> certification has been required for all glazing assemblies for over 10
>> years.
>>
>>
>>
>> How do you justify certifying that your projects have met the mandatory
>> provisions of ASHRAE 90.1 without NFRC data?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Robby Oylear, LEED**®** AP BD+C*
>>
>> *Mechanical Project Engineer*
>>
>> *Energy Analyst*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *D* 206-788-4571 | *C* 206-354-2721
>>
>> *www.rushingco.com* <http://www.rushingco.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Omar Katanani <omar at ecoconsulting.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Dear all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your responses.
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Are the NFRC testing and the values in table A8.2 used for the
>>    Baseline, Proposed, or both scenarios?
>>
>>  For the baseline windows, Appendix G gives the following instructions:
>> Fenestration
>> U-factors shall match the appropriate requirements in Tables 5.5-1 through
>> 5.5-8. Fenestration SHGC shall match the appropriate requirements in
>> Tables
>> 5.5-1 through 5.5-8.
>> They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width of
>> your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Let’s say I do not have NFRC test results and decide to use the
>>    values in table A8.2. For a clear double glazed and metal frame type, I get
>>    an assembly U-factor of 5.1. How can I input this into eQUEST? As far as I
>>    know, I can enter the glass properties and the frame properties. Do I have
>>    to play with the glass properties and check the LV-D report for the
>>    calculated Assembly u-value?
>>
>>  A U of 5.1 does not make sense. Are you sure this isn't R?
>>
>>
>>   Similarly, for the baseline, Tables 5.5-1 to 5.5-8 of ASHRAE 90.1
>> provide the assembly u-values for vertical glazing. How can I enter these
>> values into eQUEST?
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. I am attaching the specs of the proposed glazing. These numbers are
>>    for the glass only (note that the u-values reported are NFRC ones).
>>    Additionally, I know that the frame will be aluminium. Do I still need NFRC
>>    U-values for the whole assembly, or is the NFRC usually for the glass only?
>>    If yes, how can I calculate the whole assembly U-value (given that eQUEST
>>    doesn’t have the ability to calculate this)
>>
>>
>> For your proposed building I highly recommend you use LBNL's Window
>> program. In it you can select your window type, e.g. casement, picture,
>> etc,, select your glass from their glass library, which is huge and
>> definitely includes Solarban, and then model your frame using whatever
>> information the architect gives you related to thermal breaks and spacers.
>> After you run your window in the program you can select to save it to a DOE
>> 2 report which will automatically go into your DOE 2 Window folder. Then you
>> just have to select it from the pull down menu.
>>
>> Otherwise, input your glass values, as you are already, *and* input your
>> frame data, the same data you got from your architect, and model it that
>> way. When you look at your LV-D report you will likely see a variety of U
>> values. That's because they will vary based on window size.due to the frame
>> effect. You need to have a frame.
>>
>> As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be
>> good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for
>> the entire window.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying this, as my project is outside the US and we are not
>> too familiar with standards such as NFRC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Omar
>>
>> ___________________________
>>
>> Omar Katanani
>> Sustainable Design Engineer
>>
>> Email: omar at ecoconsulting.net
>>
>>
>>
>> EcoConsulting (Lebanon)
>>
>> Nahas Building, 4th floor
>>
>> 4 St-Maron Street / Georges Haddad Avenue
>>
>> Postal Code: 2028 5806 SAIFI
>>
>> Beirut, Lebanon
>>
>> Tel:          +961 (0) 1 971 266
>> Mobile:    +961 (0) 3 045 045
>>
>>
>>
>> EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd
>> 28 Marshalsea Road
>> London, SE1 1HF
>> Tel:  +44 (0) 207 939 0989
>> Fax:  +44 (0) 207 939 0981
>>
>> Website: www.ecoconsulting.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Robby Oylear [mailto:robbyoylear at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 28 July 2011 00:53
>> *To:* Omar Katanani
>> *Cc:* Brad Robinson; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
>> assembly v/s Glass only
>>
>>
>>
>> Omar,
>>
>>
>>
>> To directly answer your question:
>>
>>
>>
>> "I’m assuming that, given that I entered the u-values for the glass only,
>> and then I entered information about the frame, then I need not worry about
>> any conversions in U-values, *since eQUEST has all the necessary
>> information to calculate the equivalent u-value of the whole pane + frame
>> assembly,*right?"
>>
>>
>>
>> No.  Your method will result in an assembly U-value based on your input
>> glass conductance and whatever default frame properties that the eQUEST
>> wizard will use.  I have never tried to let eQUEST determine an assembly
>> value, as NFRC values are required for LEED and code compliance studies.  I
>> would not be surprised if the values eQUEST is calculating (shown in LV-D
>> and LV-E reports like previously mentioned) are much different than what
>> you'll actually see in the test results.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, NFRC values are a LEED requirement, so unless you're just doing
>> preliminary analysis for a client, you need to receive NFRC simulation
>> reports or certified product directory numbers in accordance with NFRC 100.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Robby Oylear, LEED® AP BD+C*
>>
>> *Mechanical Project Engineer*
>>
>> *Energy Analyst*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *D* 206-788-4571 | *C* 206-354-2721
>>
>> *www.rushingco.com* <http://www.rushingco.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <omar at ecoconsulting.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Robby,
>>
>> Yes, I am modeling for LEED purposes.
>> I'll look into A8.2. But at least, is my method correct for the proposed
>> scenario?
>>
>> Brad: I think you need to enter the center of glass u-value in the "Glass
>> Type", and then enter the frame properties in the "Window" properties...
>>
>> Best,
>> Omar
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Brad Robinson <brad.robinson at yahoo.com>:
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the u-value listed for a manufacturer and specific model on the NRCAN
>> website centre of glass or overall assembly?  Many windows are custom made
>> to suit so I am unclear if each individual custom window would need to be
>> tested.
>>
>>
>>
>> In eQuest, when entering the window, if the u-value represents the whole
>> window, including frame, do you need to enter a frame width, conductance etc
>> as well under the Window Frame section under Window Properties?  Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Brad Robinson
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Robby Oylear <robbyoylear at gmail.com>
>> To: Omar Katanani <omar at ecoconsulting.net>
>> Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:32:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly
>> v/s Glass only
>>
>>
>> Omar,
>>
>> The answer depends on the purpose of your study.  If you're trying to get
>> results for a client on the impact of the glazing on their energy
>> performance, this may be adequate.  Make sure you've entered in the framing
>> information properly (metal vs. non-metal).
>>
>> I'd recommend opening up your simulation output results file (xxxx.SIM)
>> and going to the either the last page of the LV-D report or sort through
>> your LV-E report to see what value eQUEST has calculated.  Compare these
>> values to the ASHRAE Fundamentals results for overall assembly values
>> including frame to see how close you've come.  I would not blindly trust
>> that eQUEST will give you an appropriate overall assembly value based on
>> entering only the center of glass number.
>>
>> However, if this is for a LEED study, this is not adequate.  This an
>> excerpt from an e-mail I sent out recently regarding LEED and NFRC
>> requirements.
>>
>> In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must
>> comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007.  Section 5.4.2
>> Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined
>> per section 5.8.2.  Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for
>> the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in
>> accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values
>> from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.
>>
>> Robby Oylear, LEED®AP BD+C
>> Mechanical Project Engineer
>> Energy Analyst
>>
>>
>> D206-788-4571 |C206-354-2721
>>
>>
>> www.rushingco.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Omar Katanani <omar at ecoconsulting.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>> I have a small question regarding entering
>>
>> window properties to eQUEST:
>>
>>
>> I have read a lot of emails in the forum
>>
>> discussing NFRC testing, LBNL Window 5 import, and other topics that I
>> haven?t
>> paid attention to before.
>>
>>
>> The way I modelled my windows is the
>>
>> following:
>>
>>
>>        1. I have manufacturer?s specifications listing the glass U-values,
>> not the total assembly.
>>        2. In the ?Glass Types? (eQUEST Detailed Mode), I created glass
>> types, and entered the glass conductance, visible transmittance, SC, and
>> emissivity from the manufacturer?s details I have.
>>        3. When creating windows, I specify which glass type (from the ones
>> I created in step 2), in addition to the frame width and conductance.
>>
>>
>>
>> I?m assuming that, given that I
>>
>>  entered the u-values for the glass only, and then I entered information
>> about
>> the frame, then I need not worry about any conversions in U-values, since
>> eQUEST has all the necessary information to calculate the equivalent
>> u-value of
>> the whole pane + frame assembly, right?
>>
>>
>> I appreciate your feedback / comments
>>
>> today if possible, as this has become really urgent!
>>
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Omar
>> ___________________________
>> Omar Katanani
>> Sustainable Design Engineer
>> Email: omar at ecoconsulting.net
>>
>> EcoConsulting (Lebanon)
>>
>> NahasBuilding, 4th floor
>>
>>
>> 4 St-Maron Street/ Georges Haddad Avenue
>> Postal Code: 2028 5806
>>
>>  SAIFI
>>
>> Beirut, Lebanon
>> Tel:          +961 (0) 1 971 266
>> Mobile:    +961 (0) 3 045 045
>>
>> EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd
>> 28 Marshalsea Road
>> London, SE1 1HF
>> Tel:  +44 (0) 207 939 0989
>> Fax:  +44 (0) 207 939 0981
>> Website: www.ecoconsulting.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
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>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
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>>
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carol Gardner PE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carol Gardner PE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
>> solely for the addressee. If you are not the named addressee you should not
>> disseminate, distribute, copy, or alter this email.
>>
>>
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>>
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