[Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

Nick Caton ncaton at smithboucher.com
Mon Jan 17 13:19:11 PST 2011


No prob!

 

Whether you model the catwalks explicitly or not - consider you could
account for their people/light/other loads by simply adding those to the
common atrium space.  The catwalks may initially make your LPD inputs
easier, but they might complicate the manual deletion/surface assignment
process I outlined by creating more surfaces for you to consider during
space deletion and surface assignments.  

 

Also note I corrected myself and if your atrium shape is quite regular,
you may be able to use the wizard atrium inputs (open to below/open to
above) provided you use the "immediately above..." shell placement
option for floors 2 and up.  It's probably worth experimentation as this
could ultimately be a great timesaver.  You access these options by
double clicking the zone map image on the bottom-left of the DD wizard
zone definition screen.  Note the zone shape at the ground level seems
to determine the projected roof shape at the top level - you may need to
define separate zones to account for the actual geometries.

 

Ultimately, the approach that makes the most sense to you is the right
one.

 

I would not skip over Varkie's advice to check out the completed
reference models at bepan.info.  The concept of partitioning a new
atrium zone every couple floors may do a better job of "layering"
unconditioned/semi-conditioned spaces, and depending on where your
return air is drawn that may be a more-accurate approach.  You might
pick up some other useful ideas.

 

There are some software tools out there which will convert *.pdf to
*.dwg/*.dxf, but in my experience the end results are never perfect and
would require manual tracing regardless for eQuest.  I'd second Otto's
advice to simply trace in AutoCAD or other tool of choice (I also use
Sketchup) using the PDF as a direct reference.  That said, it's way
better to push your sources to give you a real CAD reference if it can
be made available.

 

~Nick

 

 

 

 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Otto
Schwieterman
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:54 PM
To: Chris Jones; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

 

Send the PDF to your background in AutoCAD (This step depends on what
software your computer has installed), correctly scale the pdf and trace
the floor plan in AutoCAD.

 

From: Chris Jones [mailto:cj at enersave.ca] 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:53 PM
To: Nick Caton; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

 

Thanks Nick!
Re the catwalk - they are open to the atrium.  The one reason to model
them is because they have light fixtures associated.  Including the
floor areas of the catwalks increases the baseline lighting to capture
the lighting of the catwalks.

The atrium is not open to the rest of the building except by door.
Between the perimeter spaces and the atrium is glazing.  

The other question I have is what do you do when the floor plans are
submitted in PDF - how do you import the floor plans into equest?  Or do
you have to enter all the vertices manually?

Thanks again for taking time to respond.



At 04:04 PM 14/01/2011, Nick Caton wrote:

Hi Chris,
 
Some running thoughts you might consider - all this in concert might get
the job done, in any case it's what I'd try first:
-          Varying "floorplates"/zoning for each floor means you need
unique shells per floor, which means you can't use any of the
"open-to-above/below" approaches to making an atrium with the wizards.
That simplifies the discussion somewhat: you'll need to define this
atrium somehow "manually."
-          I would draw out the "catwalk corridors" (assuming they're
covered and separately conditioned) on their respective shell-floors.
If they're open to the atrium I'd ignore them entirely.
-          I would finish everything up in the wizards, and upon
entering detailed mode delete every created space/zone that's part of
the "atrium," excepting the top level's, which should include any
roof/skylight surfaces and be retained.  Delete any child surfaces
associated with these atrium zones excepting any interior partitions to
the perimeter zones - if those exist, move the interior partitions to be
a child component of the appropriate perimeter zone first before
deleting the atrium zone.  You might be above to avoid this scenario in
the wizards by defining the atrium zones LAST at the custom zone
definition dialogs for each shell... not sure but worth a shot.
-          I would modify the space geometries (volume) and its internal
loads (# of people should account for the catwalks if they're open) to
match the full volume of the atrium
-          Assign a SUM system as a placeholder to the atrium - goal
being to have all its loads handled by the systems serving the perimeter
spaces 
-          I would use the 2D view of each shell to modify all internal
walls "open" to the atrium  in the actual design to be of type "AIR,"
and to simultaneously ensure their parent space is associated to the
large, common atrium space.  I think this will correctly tie the
atrium's internal loads to the others thermally... this is why we took
care to keep those and not delete them along with the wizard-generated
atrium spaces.
-          I would use the "DIRECT" option for the HVAC systems' return
air path, rather than the plenum/duct options - I think this will
indirectly ensure the heat gains/losses of any atrium skylights/roofs
and the collective internal heat gains in the atrium find their way into
the return air stream
 
I can't say 100% whether this is all you'd need to do, but it's a game
plan I would start with.  To make a comment regarding accuracy:  It's
probably fair to say eQuest, which doesn't model complex CFD on an
hourly basis, may not be as accurate in any end-case as some more costly
software options may be for a large atrium as you're describing.  This
approach should be sufficient however for getting into the right
ballpark, provided those "think" items above hold true (you might want
to hold off for others' input).
 
 
Best of luck - sounds like an interesting project to say the least =)!
 
~Nick
 
 
PS:  I've never been compensated for my advice on these lists, and I'm
not about to start asking, but neither have I taken on any liability or
promise of availability as a formal instructor...  That said, I wouldn't
go home and cry myself to sleep if someone found anything valuable
enough to compensate ^_^.
 
 
 
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
www.smithboucher.com 
 
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [ 
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> ] On Behalf Of Chris
Jones
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:21 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes
 
The topic I consider advanced is modelling different floor plate shapes
on each floor - with a multi-storey atrium in the middle.  The atrium
has corridor catwalks for crossing from one side of the building to
another.  Supply air is transferred into the atrium from the surrounding
spaces - the atrium is a return air plenum for multiple air handlers.  

I would gladly pay for a step by step tutorial on setting up the
geometry for such a building.




I've been in discussions with those who make a business of eQuest/DOE2
instruction regarding this issue... I think a major reason we don't see
many 'advanced' classes is: it would be very hard to develop a
rubric/syllabus for an 'advanced' group of learners as it would seem
there aren't many 'advanced' topics that aren't extremely
system/project-specific (therefore seemingly of little interest to a
group of learners at large).   
 
One exception that comes to mind that would probably be of common
interest might be the evaluation and creation of chiller & heatpump
performance curves - that skillset is frankly tough to self-learn (it
took me a long while and multiple projects)... 
 
As an aside:  I might also cite a real-world experience where a local
rep for Carrier hosted an event that included discussion/instruction for
a single, narrow 'advanced' eQuest topic: geothermal well-field design
using eQuest/DOE2.  The room was packed*!  I hope more equipment reps in
time will recognize the value and potential draw when advanced eQuest
topic instruction is offered, even if only for a very narrow sort of
system/topic.
 
If you really would like formal, 'advanced' instruction, you might be
best-advised to come up with a list of topics you want
instruction/guidance on (make your own personal rubric), and share that
list either publicly on the lists or directly with those who offer
training services - you may be able to then filter out who is able and
is willing to teach you some or all of your desired instruction
individually, and at what cost.  
 
~Nick
 
* I would be remiss to not mention Anthony Hardman (frequent contributor
to these lists) provided that instruction, and it was excellent.
 


Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel.  416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005


Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel.  416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005

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