[Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

[Paul Diglio]

Lan:

No, I could not find a section that mentions the predominate heating source of 
the proposed be used as baseline heating source.

The Advanced Energy Modeling manual costs $120.00 and is available only for 
download.  It is a secure document and cannot be printed as a PDF, it can be 
printed to hard-copy.

Based on G3.1.3.2 and the Advance Energy Modeling manual extract below, my 
understanding is that the baseline system can only use one source of fuel for 
the HVAC systems and the baseline boiler plant for system 5 shall use the same 
type of fuel as the proposed.  Does ASHRAE consider electricity as a fuel?  In 
the 90.1-2004 definitions fuel is defined as 'a material that may be used to 
produce heat or generate power by combustion'.

Another example of the lack of coordination between LEED and ASHRAE 90.1. 

If I understand your design correctly, your DOAS is using a natural gas furnace 
and you have a VRV system for the space heating and cooling requirements.  So 
your actual proposed heating source is electricity with a small secondary 
natural gas use to precondition the outside air.  Since LEED says you cannot 
have two energy sources for the HVAC systems in the baseline, your reviewer is 
requesting that you use the proposed predominate source for the baseline.

Would it not increase your energy savings to do as the reviewer requests?

Paul Diglio



________________________________
From: "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 10:11:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

 
Paul, 

Does this manual say that I would use the predominant heating source of proposed 
as the source for my base? We don’t have this book in our company library.
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Lan
 
Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH   44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292
 
lli at sbmce.com
www.sbmce.com
 
ColumbusOffice (614) 448-1498
üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
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Thank you
 

________________________________
 
From:Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:07 AM
To: Li, Lan; cmg750 at gmail.com; Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
 
Lan:

In the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED Technical Manual v.1 page 28 under 
ASHRAE 90.1-2004 common errors for HVAC System, primary system type, the second 
error is 'Baseline HVAC systems use both fossil fuel and electricity'.

I assume this is why your reviewer requested that the baseline be changed to the 
predominate heating energy source that was used in the proposed model.


Paul Diglio
 

________________________________
 
From:"Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>; cmg750 at gmail.com; 
Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 9:45:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
Paul, Paul and Carol,
 
This sentence just jumps into my eyes.  It is on ASHREA 90.1-2007 User’s manual 
page G-22. 

 
Here is the interception. 
 
The performance rating rules for the baseline building HVAC system are shown in 
Table G-A. This table shows the baseline building system types, based on 
building type (nonresidential or
residential), the number of floors, the floor area and the heating source 
(electric or other). Note that a hybrid system refers to a system with any 
combination of fossil and electric heat, and the baseline system for this is a 
fossil fuel system.
 
I think I will stick with my gun and go for it. I will keep all of you posted 
for the outcome of my review. Hopefully everyone will be clear on this matter 
then.
 
Thanks!
 
Lan
Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH   44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292
 
lli at sbmce.com
www.sbmce.com
 
ColumbusOffice (614) 448-1498
üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative 
of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing 
the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this 
e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and 
delete all copies of this message and any attachments. 

Thank you
 

________________________________
 
From:Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 5:48 PM
To: Li, Lan; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
 
Lan:

90.1-2007 requires a system 5 with a fossil fuel hot water boiler as you have 
modeled, but in 90.1-2007 Table G3.1 Number 10 HVAC Systems Base Building 
Performance column it states that you need to meet any system-specific 
requirements in Section G3.1.3.

In G3.1.3.2, it states that for system 5, the boiler plant shall use the same 
fuel as the proposed design, which in your case is electric resistance and 
compressor heat pump energy.  I would model electric hot water boilers.

Paul Diglio
 

________________________________
 
From:"Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 4:24:27 PM
Subject: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
Dear eQuesters,
 
I just got LEED review comments for my project. Our proposed design is VRF 
system with roof top unit providing ventilation air. Roof top unit is using gas 
as heating source. There are misc. elec. heaters in the building for places like 
entries. I interpreted my building heating source as “electric hybrid” and used 
hot water fossil fuel boiler as my base design. The comments I got read as the 
follows:
Section 1.1.A of the form indicates that the primary heating source is fossil 
fuel. However, the electric heating energy use reported in Table EAp2-5 for the 
Proposed Case exceeds the fossil fuel heating energy use. Please verify that the 
correct heating source has been selected. If electric heating is the primary 
heating source, please change the Baseline system type accordingly. Provide 
updated simulation results and a revised Prerequisite Form as necessary.
I couldn’t find an official definition either on LEED reference book or 90.1. 
What is your take on this?
Your input is highly appreciated! Thank you very much!
Lan
 
 
 
Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
1540 Corporate  Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH 44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292
 
lli at sbmce.com
www.sbmce.com
 
ColumbusOffice (614) 448-1498
üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative 
of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing 
the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this 
e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and 
delete all copies of this message and any attachments. 

Thank you
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