[Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Carol Gardner cmg750 at gmail.com
Fri Jul 1 10:19:31 PDT 2011


Which is really confusing isn't it, since they specifically list a
Fossil/Electic hybrid as a header on that table. Argh!


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Cam Fitzgerald <cam at energyopportunities.com
> wrote:

>  The reference to the predominant condition is the third footnote under
> Table G3.1.1A.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Cam S. Fitzgerald, PE, LEED AP****
>
> ** **
>
> Energy Opportunities, LLC****
>
> a 7group company****
>
> e-mail:  fitzgerald at sevengroup.com****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Paul Diglio
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 01, 2011 10:45 AM
> *To:* Li, Lan
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating
> source****
>
>  ** **
>
> Lan:
>
> No, I could not find a section that mentions the predominate heating source
> of the proposed be used as baseline heating source.
>
> The Advanced Energy Modeling manual costs $120.00 and is available only for
> download.  It is a secure document and cannot be printed as a PDF, it can be
> printed to hard-copy.
>
> Based on G3.1.3.2 and the Advance Energy Modeling manual extract below, my
> understanding is that the baseline system can only use one source of fuel
> for the HVAC systems and the baseline boiler plant for system 5 shall use
> the same type of fuel as the proposed.  Does ASHRAE consider electricity as
> a fuel?  In the 90.1-2004 definitions fuel is defined as 'a material that
> may be used to produce heat or generate power by combustion'.
>
> Another example of the lack of coordination between LEED and ASHRAE 90.1.
>
> If I understand your design correctly, your DOAS is using a natural gas
> furnace and you have a VRV system for the space heating and cooling
> requirements.  So your actual proposed heating source is electricity with a
> small secondary natural gas use to precondition the outside air.  Since LEED
> says you cannot have two energy sources for the HVAC systems in the
> baseline, your reviewer is requesting that you use the proposed predominate
> source for the baseline.
>
> Would it not increase your energy savings to do as the reviewer requests?
>
> Paul Diglio****
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
> *To:* Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>
> *Sent:* Fri, July 1, 2011 10:11:03 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating
> source****
>
> Paul, ****
>
>
> Does this manual say that I would use the predominant heating source of
> proposed as the source for my base? We don’t have this book in our company
> library.****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks a lot!****
>
>  ****
>
> Lan****
>
>  ****
>
> *Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C*****
>
> *Mechanical Engineer*****
>
> *Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC**                                     *****
>
> *1540 Corporate Woods Parkway*****
>
> *Uniontown, OH 44685*****
>
> *Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123*****
>
> *Fax: (330) 896-9180*****
>
> *Cell:(330) 904-6292*****
>
> * *****
>
> *lli at sbmce.com*****
>
> *www.sbmce.com*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Columbus Office (614) 448-1498*****
>
> *ü** **Please consider the environment before printing this email.*****
>
> *This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be
> legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized
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>
> *Thank you*****
>
>  ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 01, 2011 10:07 AM
> *To:* Li, Lan; cmg750 at gmail.com; Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating
> source****
>
>  ****
>
> Lan:
>
> In the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED Technical Manual v.1 page 28 under
> ASHRAE 90.1-2004 common errors for HVAC System, primary system type, the
> second error is 'Baseline HVAC systems use both fossil fuel and
> electricity'.
>
> I assume this is why your reviewer requested that the baseline be changed
> to the predominate heating energy source that was used in the proposed
> model.
>
>
> Paul Diglio****
>
>  ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
> *To:* Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>; cmg750 at gmail.com;
> Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Fri, July 1, 2011 9:45:38 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating
> source****
>
> Paul, Paul and Carol,****
>
>  ****
>
> This sentence just jumps into my eyes.  It is on ASHREA 90.1-2007 User’s
> manual page G-22. ****
>
>  ****
>
> Here is the interception. ****
>
>  ****
>
> The performance rating rules for the baseline building HVAC system are
> shown in Table G-A. This table shows the baseline building system types,
> based on building type (nonresidential or****
>
> residential), the number of floors, the floor area and the heating source
> (electric or other). Note that a hybrid system refers to a system with any
> combination of fossil and electric heat, and the baseline system for this is
> a fossil fuel system.****
>
>  ****
>
> I think I will stick with my gun and go for it. I will keep all of you
> posted for the outcome of my review. Hopefully everyone will be clear on
> this matter then.****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks!****
>
>  ****
>
> Lan****
>
> *Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C*****
>
> *Mechanical Engineer*****
>
> *Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC**                                     *****
>
> *1540 Corporate Woods Parkway*****
>
> *Uniontown, OH 44685*****
>
> *Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123*****
>
> *Fax: (330) 896-9180*****
>
> *Cell:(330) 904-6292*****
>
> * *****
>
> *lli at sbmce.com*****
>
> *www.sbmce.com*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Columbus Office (614) 448-1498*****
>
> *ü** **Please consider the environment before printing this email.*****
>
> *This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be
> legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized
> representative of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using,
> copying or distributing the information in this e-mail or its attachments.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies of this message and any
> attachments. *****
>
> *Thank you*****
>
>  ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 30, 2011 5:48 PM
> *To:* Li, Lan; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating
> source****
>
>  ****
>
> Lan:
>
> 90.1-2007 requires a system 5 with a fossil fuel hot water boiler as you
> have modeled, but in 90.1-2007 Table G3.1 Number 10 HVAC Systems Base
> Building Performance column it states that you need to meet any
> system-specific requirements in Section G3.1.3.
>
> In G3.1.3.2, it states that for system 5, the boiler plant shall use the
> same fuel as the proposed design, which in your case is electric resistance
> and compressor heat pump energy.  I would model electric hot water boilers.
>
> Paul Diglio****
>
>  ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Thu, June 30, 2011 4:24:27 PM
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
> ****
>
> Dear eQuesters,****
>
>  ****
>
> I just got LEED review comments for my project. Our proposed design is VRF
> system with roof top unit providing ventilation air. Roof top unit is using
> gas as heating source. There are misc. elec. heaters in the building for
> places like entries. I interpreted my building heating source as “electric
> hybrid” and used hot water fossil fuel boiler as my base design. The
> comments I got read as the follows:****
>
> *Section 1.1.A of the form indicates that the primary heating source is
> fossil fuel. However, the electric heating energy use reported in Table
> EAp2-5 for the Proposed Case exceeds the fossil fuel heating energy use.
> Please verify that the correct heating source has been selected. If electric
> heating is the primary heating source, please change the Baseline system
> type accordingly. Provide updated simulation results and a revised
> Prerequisite Form as necessary.*****
>
> I couldn’t find an official definition either on LEED reference book or
> 90.1. What is your take on this?****
>
> Your input is highly appreciated! Thank you very much!****
>
> Lan****
>
> * *****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C*****
>
> *Mechanical Engineer*****
>
> *Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC**                                     *****
>
> *1540 Corporate Woods Parkway*****
>
> *Uniontown, OH 44685*****
>
> *Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123*****
>
> *Fax: (330) 896-9180*****
>
> *Cell:(330) 904-6292*****
>
> * *****
>
> *lli at sbmce.com* <lli at sbmce.com>****
>
> *www.sbmce.com* <http://www.sbmce.com/>****
>
> * *****
>
> *Columbus Office (614) 448-1498*****
>
> *ü** **Please consider the environment before printing this email.*****
>
> *This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be
> legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized
> representative of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using,
> copying or distributing the information in this e-mail or its attachments.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies of this message and any
> attachments. *****
>
> *Thank you*****
>
>  ****
>
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-- 
Carol Gardner PE
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