[Equest-users] Factory Building with Refrigeration

[Michael Wilson]

Hi Nick. I’m working on a processing plant with some cold storage rooms
right now, and I’ve found you can get 35 degree supply air temps and
maintain room temps down to 37. If you’re using PSZ, it doesn’t use
COOL-SET-T but uses MIN-SUPPLY-T instead. I had to fudge the supply air
volumes with such a small dT, and  change the curves as they didn’t make
sense at such low temps. But it seems to work.

 

I was very interested to hear there was a refrigeration version. That would
have been very handy for this project (too late now), as there are some
rooms below 35. I’ll try that next time.

 

Mike

 

 

Michael Wilson, P.Eng.

PO Box 1911 - 458 Abbs Rd.

Gibsons, BC  V0N 1V0

604-886-9864

www.enerficiency.ca

 

 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Poling
Sent: January-30-12 1:00 PM
To: Nick Caton; Ömer Moltay; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Factory Building with Refrigeration

 

Nick,

 

Such a coincidence :)  I’m pretty sure Scott helped out my coworker Ken with
a few items when he was working on the model I described below.  Jeff and
Scott are more than welcome to correct me if my memory is incorrect on any
of this.

 

Here’s the research I did over lunch trying to keep myself sane on where the
low-limit on zone temps came from.  If you look at the keywords, the
DESIGN-COOL-T keyword has a range of 0-90 and will error on either side of
that number, but the MIN_SUPPLY_T keyword has a range of 35-70 and the
COOL-SET-T keyword has a range of 45-70.  So effectively, the system will
not be allowed to go below a cold deck leaving temperature of 45F.  This
will probably make it difficult to use for modeling the “cold” zones of the
penguin exhibit but likely okay for the “cool” zones (Key part for Scott and
Jeff to confirm).

 

The refrigeration model can handle packaged refrigeration equipment that can
deal with the colder temperatures.  The range you noted of 46-48 is pretty
similar to the temperatures used in food processing and storage for “cooler”
spaces as opposed to “freezer” spaces.  That said, you would not be able to
model a ground-source system in the refrigeration model, unless you find
some really creative work-around that escaped us or wasn’t available when we
were doing our complicated model.

 

What we did to help mesh the models was to “fake” the portion of each model
that wouldn’t work 100%, created a common “back-of-house” portion of the
model that was the same in both, then used the strengths of each version of
eQuest to model the respective spaces.  So in this case, you would end up
with two separate models (and their respective baselines if you’re
ultimately using it for LEED or need to compare it to something):

 

1.       eQuest-Standard Model: back-of-house as designed, “cool” spaces as
designed, “cold” spaces faked as close as possible to represent the cold
temperatures

2.       eQuest-Refrigeration Model: back-of-house as designed, “cool”
spaces faked to maintain temperatures without regard for system/energy,
“cold” spaces as designed

 

As long as you meter everything out separately, your final energy use is the
sum of the “cold” space meters from the eQuestR model, the “cool” spaces
from the eQuest model, then we used the highest of the two back-of-house
results to be conservative (there were minor differences that we didn’t have
enough time to ferret out the entire cause).

 

You can see why, with a huge amount of respect and thanks to Scott, Jeff,
et.al
I’d almost rather put the time into learning the extra tool for my
tool belt than try to do this again the same way :)  I’d be curious to know
if there have been any major changes to the Refrigeration model since then
that might streamline the process we used?

 

Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC

 

From: Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
To: Jeremy Poling; Ömer Moltay; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Cc: Jeff.Hirsch at DOE2.com; Scott Criswell
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Factory Building with Refrigeration

 

Hey Jeremy!

 

Saw this post today and what weird timing
 I have another unique/interesting
scenario for a project on the horizon your advice/experience seems perfect
for:  A penguin exhibit for the local zoo!

 

Will have multiple zones targeting 46-48F.  This model is primarily to
explore different options with regard to just what equipment really makes
sense from the outset and over the long term – a ground source wellfield is
on the table as a definite option, and I gather our design team is very open
to using entirely separate systems for the “cool” (68-70) vs. “cold” (46-48)
zones.

 

Do you think design temps in the mid-high 40’s might still crunch out
alright with the regular eQuest version?  I’m really not sure what to expect
in the way of system options to be tossed at me, but it would help to have a
solid understanding of the limitations moving forward
  I think I’d prefer
to stick with the tools I’m most familiar with if they remain feasible for
the task at hand.

 

Jeff/Scott:  Copying you gurus per Jeremy’s advice – any thoughts?

 

Thanks fellas!

 

~Nick

 

cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB

 

NICK CATON, P.E.

SENIOR ENGINEER

 

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway, suite 200

olathe, ks 66061

direct 913.344.0036

fax 913.345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Poling
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:01 AM
To: Ömer Moltay; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Factory Building with Refrigeration

 

The refrigeration version would allow the space temperatures typical of an
ice cream factory.  I can’t remember the exact temperature, but you cannot
model a space in the regular version of eQuest too much below 50-degrees-F.
Also, I haven’t seen many industrial ammonia absorbers but ammonia is a
common low-temperature refrigerant.  The refrigeration version has the
components typical to a refrigeration plant (separate compressors,
evaporators, and condensers) while the standard version would have to be
forced into modeling it and certain components might not even be able to do
that.

 

The refrigeration version is very powerful and I’ve used it on projects
before, but it is a little bit more raw than the standard version.  We had a
complex project that required both ground-source heat pumps and
refrigeration and unfortunately couldn’t use just one version of eQuest to
model the building, which made for an interesting process.

 

I have nothing against eQuest and we ended up with a solid model due partly
to the software, but if I had to do such a complex model over again I would
probably pick TRNSYS instead just due to the flexibility to build in
multiple unique components.  If your model is more of a standard
refrigeration system, though, the refrigeration version of eQuest should be
fine.  I’d recommend getting in touch with the James Hirsch team for
assistance if needed since the experience on the lists tends to be thinner
on this topic.  They were very helpful to us when we used the software.

 

Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ömer Moltay
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:27 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Equest-users] Factory Building with Refrigeration

 

Dear All,

We are faced with an ice cream factory where all the production spaces and
finished product warehouse spaces are cooled with ammonia absorption
chillers. We are trying to understand if there is any need to use the eQuest
Refrigeration version? What are the advantages of this over the standard
eQuest releases? As far as I know, the standard version can also model
absorption chillers. In which cases does it make sense to use the
Refrigeration version? What are your recommendations on how to approach
modeling this building?

Thank you,

Omer Moltay, LEED AP BD+C, BREEAM Assessor 
Mimta Ltd. 
Hekimsuyu Cad. 559. Sk. No:39 
34255 Kucukkoy Istanbul Turkey 
Tel: 90-212-617-2296 
Fax: 90-212-617-2297 
www.mimtarch.com 
www.eko-yapi.net 
www.mimtasolar.com 
www.servogas.com 

  _____  

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