[Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest Software's Ability toModelBoilers on Ground Loops

[James Hansen]

Sorry, I assumed since you could add a boiler to a WSHP loop that you
could run it too :)

 

Indeed there is an error when processing.

 

You could always add the boiler load as a process load (in order to get
unmet load hours down).

 

However, you don't have an issue with unmet load hours right?  If there
is a boiler that shows up in your proposed design (ie contract
documents) that is there for backup, but your hourly reports show that
you don't need one, just submit hourly reports and explain this.

 

GHT Limited
James Hansen, P.E., LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Road, Suite 200
Arlington, VA  22201-4749
703-243-1200 (office)

703-338-5754 (cell)
703-276-1376 (fax)

www.ghtltd.com <http://www.ghtltd.com/> 

 

From: Kathryn Kerns [mailto:kathryn.kerns at bceengineers.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 2:45 PM
To: Nick Caton; James Hansen; Steve Woolery;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest Software's Ability
toModelBoilers on Ground Loops

 

Nick if you have some way of adding a boiler to the HP Water Loop
containing the Ground Loop HX without getting the "cannot combine a
boiler  and a ground loop HX" fatal error, please show me. I must be
missing something.

 

________________________________

From: Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
Sent: Thu 8/15/2013 10:59 AM
To: James Hansen; Kathryn Kerns; Steve Woolery;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest Software's Ability
toModelBoilers on Ground Loops

If it were me, I'd just add the inconsequential boiler, state/show I did
so, and move on.  Typically less effort than building an impenetrable
case to someone being contrarian.

 

To bullet #3:  I think not for the standard output reports, but loop
entering and exiting temperatures are options in the custom hourly
output report dialog, which I believe you can assign to any loop type.
This will put out a CSV you can use with a spreadsheet software of your
choosing to quickly come up with minimums/maximums over the simulation.


 

Attached is a past thread with a spelled out / illustrated procedure for
setting up a custom hourly report, in case that's helpful.

 

Best regards,

 

~Nick

 

 
cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB<http://mail.bceengineers.com/exchange/kathry
n.kerns/Drafts/RE:%20%5bEquest-users%5d%20LEED%20Issue%20with%20EQuest%2
0Software%27s%20Ability%20toModelBoilers%20on%20Ground%20Loops.EML/1_mul
tipart/image001.jpg> 

 

NICK CATON, P.E.

SENIOR ENGINEER

 

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway, suite 200

olathe, ks 66061

direct 913.344.0036

fax 913.345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James
Hansen
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 11:36 AM
To: Kathryn Kerns; Steve Woolery; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest Software's Ability to
ModelBoilers on Ground Loops

 

You can absolutely add a boiler to a GSHP loop.  Just add a boiler, and
when asked which HW loop to assign it to, you can pick the GSHP Loop (as
long as that loop is a "Water Loop HP" loop).

 

I think more than likely this is the reason you are getting the comments
you are.  This reviewer may know that you CAN add a boiler to a GSHP
loop, which is the reason for comment #4.

 

I doubt GBCI is trying to eliminate eQuest as a modeling option.

 

Also, printing out hourly reports from an eQuest run is often helpful in
proving your case (whatever case that may be).  If you can show, via
hourly reports, that the heat picked up by the GSHP heat exchanger
exceeds the heating load for all 8,760 hours of the day, then case
closed...that's all you need to submit.

 

GHT Limited
James Hansen, P.E., LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Road, Suite 200
Arlington, VA  22201-4749
703-243-1200 (office)

703-338-5754 (cell)
703-276-1376 (fax)

www.ghtltd.com <http://www.ghtltd.com/> 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Kerns
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:27 PM
To: Steve Woolery; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest Software's Ability to
ModelBoilers on Ground Loops

 

Everyone, I have received a snarky comment from the LEED reviewers
regarding eQuest and not being able to model back-up boilers on a ground
heat pump loop. See below. The ground loop is large enough not to
generate any temperature low alarm messages, the ground loop pump flow
never reaches 100% flow except for 1 hour and the ground loop heating
capacity is never exceeded. These facts do not appear to be a good
enough explanation not modeling the back up gas boiler. 

 

My questions for the group are:

1. Is there a way to add a boiler or some additional heat source to a
ground loop in eQuest?  As far as I know the only work around I have
discovered is to represent the ground loop by creating a water loop and
adding a magical no energy consuming boiler and fluid cooler to a heat
pump water loop and change the water loop parameters to match ground
loop parameters. Then you can add normal boilers that will start if the
non-energy consuming ground loop boiler is too small for the building
heat load.  I offered this option to the LEED reviewer and they replied
that it was not an established work around.

 

2. If there is no way to attach a boiler to a ground loop in eQuest, is
there some established work around that somebody has used that was
accepted by a LEED reviewer?

 

3. Is there anything in the reports that lists the maximum and minimum
ground loop temperatures? I have been unable to locate it. 

 

4. Does anyone have an written explanation to answer "If this [the
boiler] is not being modeled in the energy modeling software then
provide a thorough explanation for why it cannot be modeled. "?

 

5. Does this sound like LEED is trying to eliminate eQuest software, and
if so, is there anything we can do about it? "in the future the software
selected to simulate the building components must be able to model those
components "

 

The project team could possibly demonstrate that the boiler would not
operate through a series of engineering calculations, some other
software that could possibly simulate the building's loop temperatures,
or through a thorough explanation of how the system operation prevents
the boiler from operating. In short the project team must demonstrate
that the boiler will not operate, not just say that is the case without
presenting some evidence. If this is not being modeled in the energy
modeling software then provide a thorough explanation for why it cannot
be modeled. In the future the software selected to simulate the building
components must be able to model those components or use an exceptional
calculation (work around) to do so (G2.2). 

 

________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20130815/d0924e48/attachment-0002.htm>