[Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls

[Jones, Christopher]

Robo-zoning - I love that.

Nothing I like better than taking over a model where the zoning has been done to match the architectural drawings - space for space.  Look, 300 zones!

But it does bring up the question of what is the trade-off when doing compliance models: number of zones vs. calculating the area weighted average inputs for the baseline case.  For example, when combining offices, corridors, services spaces in one zone, the areas of each space type has to be measured in order to set the baseline lighting power density.  I am interested in others' approaches to this issue.


[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
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From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Haberl
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 1:02 PM
To: Nicholas Caton; David Griffin II; bfountain at greensim.com; Daniel Caporizzo; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls


Dan,



One thing to also consider is whether or not you need the interior walls in the first place since these are basically resistors (i.e., wall = U-VALUE) or resistor-capacitors (i.e., wall = LAYERED) between two thermal zones. In addition, you need to consider if the different thermal zones have different interior temperature settings, as only in this case the interior walls begin to play a role in the thermal simulation.



In general, EQUEST and other simulation programs tend to use 5 zones in a model: i.e., N, E, S, W and core zone. However, a review of the literature seems to indicate that there have been very few definitive studies that have answered the question: Why 5 zones versus 2 (i.e., core and perimeter), or 9 zones versus 5 zones, etc.? or What about opaque walls versus windows versus slab on grade? or What about thermostat settings? This last question is critical to understanding how newer systems are impacting energy efficiency as we move towards thermostats with motion sensors and individual zone systems (i.e., VRF or mini-splits).



Furthermore, to make things worse, some vendors are moving towards "robo-zoning", without providing a basis for the "robo". So, long-story-short, unless you are doing something fancy try one zone, then two, then five, then nine. Unfortunately, to do this you'll have to dump out the BDL from your first run with the Wizard, then edit and rerun with the DOE2.2 engine, since EQUEST has built-in assumptions about zoning that are adding unnecessary zones to the model (i.e., if the thermostat settings are the same).



Jeff

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Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E.inactive,FASHRAE,FIBPSA,......jhaberl at tamu.edu<mailto:........jhaberl at tamu.edu>
Professor........................................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507
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________________________________
From: Equest-users [equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Nicholas Caton [ncaton at catonenergy.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 12:09 AM
To: David Griffin II; bfountain at greensim.com; Daniel Caporizzo; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls
The "plan north" trick looks to get the job done after a quick check in this case.  I can think of a few more tips to add to the pot so long as we're contributing:

1.       You can right click the bold perimeter lines in plan view of wizard screen 2 for each shell, manually telling eQuest to make individual walls adiabatic (an interior type you can later assign thermal ties with if desired)

2.       When you have two shells meet with walls of varying perimeter length, I have found it a good practice to generate "extra" vertices in the shell with the longer wall, so that the shell with the shorter wall can lock its vertices directly to the first.

NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner

Caton Energy Consulting
  603 N Ferrel
  Olathe, KS  66061
  office:  785.410.3317
www.catonenergy.com<https://teesmail.tees.tamus.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of David Griffin II
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 4:39 PM
To: bfountain at greensim.com<mailto:bfountain at greensim.com>; 'Daniel Caporizzo'; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls

Dan,

If Brian's solution does not work, you can try an approach I've used in previous versions of eQUEST.

In the Wizard under the Custom Zoning Pattern, offset the interiors walls that are showing up as exterior by ~1'-0" from the edge of the footprint.

This should make the walls interior rather than exterior, and since DOE2 uses area of geometry to calculate things, it should not affect the accuracy of your model.

Let me know how it goes.

Sincerely,

[Image removed by sender. ARCH | NEXUS]<http://www.archnexus.com>



DAVID W. GRIFFIN II

BEMP
ENERGY ANALYST

2505 E Parleys Way
Salt Lake City, UT 84109

Office 801.924.5028

archnexus.com<http://www.archnexus.com>

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From: bfountain at greensim.com<mailto:bfountain at greensim.com> [mailto:bfountain at greensim.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 11:21 AM
To: 'Daniel Caporizzo'; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls

I recommend leaving "Plan North" on DD wizard screen 2 as North - then setting the azimuth as required in detailed edit mode.  With Plan North as North, I find eQUEST does a good job of creating appropriate exterior and interior walls for adjacent shells.  However when the building is rotated in the wizard, what you describe (all exterior walls) has happened to me as well.

I hope this resolves your issue.

[cid:image005.png at 01D0C2E5.B9EDE7A0]

Brian

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Caporizzo
Sent: July-15-15 1:09 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Interior Walls show up as Exterior Walls

Hi everyone,

I am working on an energy model for an office building (see attached pd2 and inp files), in eQuest v3.65.

My problem is that when I create the shells and zones, all of the walls touching adjacent shells/zones show up as exterior walls instead of interior walls.

This is a particular problem on all of the "1F" shells in the model, which should have interior walls when the shells connect. I am using the default zones right now while the architect works on updating the room layout. I don't know if it is just a setting I have unchecked but in the past this has only been an isolated problem (i.e. couple of walls for the whole job) rather than the entire project. I am still in the Wizard Data Edit mode phase of the model, and even though I can fix this manually in Detailed Edit Mode (by creating interior walls in the same location) I'd like to fix it in the wizard...which will definitely save me time in the long run.

Has anyone had this problem before?

Thanks,
Dan


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