[Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Snarski, Marty)

Bob Vogt BVogt at luckett-farley.com
Mon Jan 25 05:12:10 PST 2010


Marty,

If this is LEED you must follow the  Required Treatment of District
Thermal Energy in LEED-NC version 2.2 and LEED for Schools Version 1.0
May 28, 2008. It requires two energy models. LEED does not like central
plants. I am not sure about LEED version three.

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Steve Mettlach)
   2. Re: Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller
      (Beaton, Christine)
   3. Re: Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Jimmy Stevens)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:00:24 -0600
From: Steve Mettlach <SMettlach at hga.com>
To: <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline
	Chiller
Message-ID:
	<385A95AD91C2AD4DA14F17E2C74EAC520234F6CF at mildcmb1.hga.int>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

When you are modeling purchased chilled water, you are basically setting
up a chiller with a COP equal to one.  So if you are comparing a
baseline building with a chiller (COP equal to 4.9), you can expect the
purchased chilled water energy to be 4.9 times greater than the
purchased chilled water energy for an equivalent cooling load.

Steve Mettlach



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Today's Topics:

   1. Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Snarski, Marty)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:51:49 -0600
From: "Snarski, Marty" <msnarski at shwgroup.com>
To: <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller
Message-ID:
	<078AC5207CEDE145A8C7C74FFB3975A070F783 at DALEXC1.shwgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, all.

 

I'm working on a DD-level Energy Model, and am having some trouble with
the results.

 

My Design Building will use campus chilled water, and campus steam.
I've modeled those per the instructions in the TRACE User Manual.

 

My Baseline Building is a System 7, and is therefore modeled with a
chiller (screw-chiller >150, <300 tons), and a boiler.

 

The overall cooling loads for the  two alternatives are:

Baseline: 548.1 tons

Design: 393.1 tons

 

On the PRM Summary, however, the Space Cooling energy is coming up at:

Baseline: 765.0 (10^6 Btu/yr)

Design: 3659.7 (10^6 Btu/yr)

 

It seems to me there should be an energy savings with chilled water,
over the chiller.  At any rate, it seems strange to me that there'd be
an increase of Cooling Energy of 5 times, to meet a smaller load.

 

Might anyone have any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Martin Snarski   LEED(r) AP 
Mechanical Engineer 



 



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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:13:32 -0500
From: "Beaton, Christine" <CB at BRPLUSA.COM>
To: "Steve Mettlach" <SMettlach at hga.com>,
	<trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline
	Chiller
Message-ID:
	<E2E4869804619544A0FC285C25CE910409E4DB35 at boses00.brplusa.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

Martin:
Per the attached document (see link), for LEED, you will have to do a
Step 1 model where you compare your building design to the baseline with
both as purchased chilled water so you wouldn't be comparing a chiller
to purchased chilled water.  Then, in the Step 2 model, you would
compare your chiller (campus system, district cooling, whatever) to an
ASHRAE chiller.  This amends Appendix G.

http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176

-Christine


-----Original Message-----
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Mettlach
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:00 PM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller

When you are modeling purchased chilled water, you are basically setting
up a chiller with a COP equal to one.  So if you are comparing a
baseline building with a chiller (COP equal to 4.9), you can expect the
purchased chilled water energy to be 4.9 times greater than the
purchased chilled water energy for an equivalent cooling load.

Steve Mettlach



-----Original Message-----
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
trace-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:07 PM
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Subject: Trace-users Digest, Vol 18, Issue 2

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Today's Topics:

   1. Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Snarski, Marty)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:51:49 -0600
From: "Snarski, Marty" <msnarski at shwgroup.com>
To: <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller
Message-ID:
	<078AC5207CEDE145A8C7C74FFB3975A070F783 at DALEXC1.shwgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, all.

 

I'm working on a DD-level Energy Model, and am having some trouble with
the results.

 

My Design Building will use campus chilled water, and campus steam.
I've modeled those per the instructions in the TRACE User Manual.

 

My Baseline Building is a System 7, and is therefore modeled with a
chiller (screw-chiller >150, <300 tons), and a boiler.

 

The overall cooling loads for the  two alternatives are:

Baseline: 548.1 tons

Design: 393.1 tons

 

On the PRM Summary, however, the Space Cooling energy is coming up at:

Baseline: 765.0 (10^6 Btu/yr)

Design: 3659.7 (10^6 Btu/yr)

 

It seems to me there should be an energy savings with chilled water,
over the chiller.  At any rate, it seems strange to me that there'd be
an increase of Cooling Energy of 5 times, to meet a smaller load.

 

Might anyone have any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Martin Snarski   LEED(r) AP 
Mechanical Engineer 



 



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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:20:22 -0500
From: Jimmy Stevens <jstevens at hewv.com>
To: "Beaton, Christine" <CB at BRPLUSA.COM>, Steve Mettlach
	<SMettlach at hga.com>, 	"trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
	<trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline
	Chiller
Message-ID: <2CFFBAB50E0F2E46AD1A42F6EE102B6A08B134F4 at mail01.hewv.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Steve
In particular, pay attention to the type of air handling equipment you
have to use in the step 1 model. In some cases, it will be different
than what Ashrae 90.1 directs you to do. For example, in the step 1
model,  the appendix G amendment may direct you to use FCUs but in the
step 2 model, Ashrae 90.1 may direct you to use PTACs.  Just make sure
you read every word of the document that Christine referenced.
 

+ Jimmy Stevens | www.hewv.com |


-----Original Message-----
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Beaton,
Christine
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:14 PM
To: Steve Mettlach; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller

Martin:
Per the attached document (see link), for LEED, you will have to do a
Step 1 model where you compare your building design to the baseline with
both as purchased chilled water so you wouldn't be comparing a chiller
to purchased chilled water.  Then, in the Step 2 model, you would
compare your chiller (campus system, district cooling, whatever) to an
ASHRAE chiller.  This amends Appendix G.

http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176

-Christine


-----Original Message-----
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Mettlach
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:00 PM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller

When you are modeling purchased chilled water, you are basically setting
up a chiller with a COP equal to one.  So if you are comparing a
baseline building with a chiller (COP equal to 4.9), you can expect the
purchased chilled water energy to be 4.9 times greater than the
purchased chilled water energy for an equivalent cooling load.

Steve Mettlach



-----Original Message-----
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
trace-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:07 PM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Trace-users Digest, Vol 18, Issue 2

Send Trace-users mailing list submissions to
	trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller (Snarski, Marty)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:51:49 -0600
From: "Snarski, Marty" <msnarski at shwgroup.com>
To: <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Trace-users] Campus Chilled Water vs 90.1 Baseline Chiller
Message-ID:
	<078AC5207CEDE145A8C7C74FFB3975A070F783 at DALEXC1.shwgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, all.

 

I'm working on a DD-level Energy Model, and am having some trouble with
the results.

 

My Design Building will use campus chilled water, and campus steam.
I've modeled those per the instructions in the TRACE User Manual.

 

My Baseline Building is a System 7, and is therefore modeled with a
chiller (screw-chiller >150, <300 tons), and a boiler.

 

The overall cooling loads for the  two alternatives are:

Baseline: 548.1 tons

Design: 393.1 tons

 

On the PRM Summary, however, the Space Cooling energy is coming up at:

Baseline: 765.0 (10^6 Btu/yr)

Design: 3659.7 (10^6 Btu/yr)

 

It seems to me there should be an energy savings with chilled water,
over the chiller.  At any rate, it seems strange to me that there'd be
an increase of Cooling Energy of 5 times, to meet a smaller load.

 

Might anyone have any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Martin Snarski   LEED(r) AP 
Mechanical Engineer 



 



NOTICE:
This e-mail transmission is intended only for the use of the individual
or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you
are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review,
disclosure, copying, distribution, or other use of any of the
information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify
the sender by e-mail at the above address and delete it from your
computer system; you should not copy the message or disclose its
contents to anyone. The content of the message and or attachments may
not reflect the view and opinions of the originating company or any
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