[Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] fire station modeling

[Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.]

i did post to bldg-sim as well.  haven't heard back from that list yet.  
also sent the usgbc a question thru their 'contact' us in the support 
section.  may or may not hear from there.   this is relatively recent, i 
think.  my previous fire stations under leed 2.2 were certified a year 
ago+ and this didn't come up.

if the argument for classifying them as residential is based solely on 
the definition of residential in chapter 3 (it does list fire stations) 
i would think that #4 below from the user's manual would still clarify 
that the residential space classification does not apply.

On 11/9/10 10:43 AM, David Eldridge wrote:
>
> That is a good point about the exception size of 20,000 ft2 for 
> baseline systems, and I think the USGBC and/or GBCI would be justified 
> in issuing a general clarification about how to specifically approach 
> fire stations as many of them are LEED registered based on municipal 
> requirements, and they very frequently will have this mixture of usage 
> types and small conditioned areas.  For fire stations, this isn't an 
> exception, it is the rule!
>
> My own LEED Gold fire station project was under v2.1, so I can’t help 
> you there.
>
> The requirements for the Apparatus Bay spaces are so wildly different 
> than the residential areas that logically they should be separate 
> systems, regardless of the noted exceptions…these are clearly two 
> different building types, even if each is below the 20,000 ft2 
> individually.  Or even sometimes in total!  And we haven’t even 
> reached the “office” spaces in the building yet…
>
> Also you may want to raise the issue on bldg-sim rather than 
> equest-users, as this could come up for users of all software packages?
>
> David
>
> _ _
>
> *David S. Eldridge, Jr.**, P**.**E**.**, LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, HBDP*
>
> Project Manager
>
> Direct: (847) 316-9224 | Fax: (847) 328-4550
>
> http://www.grummanbutkus.com
>
> *Grumman/Butkus Associates* | 820 Davis Street, Suite 300 | Evanston, 
> IL 60201
>
> Energy Efficiency Consultants and Sustainable Design Engineers
>
> _ _
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> 
> [mailto:equest-users- <mailto:equest-users->
>
> > bounces at lists.onebuilding.org <mailto:bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] 
> On Behalf Of Jeremy Poling
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:52 AM
>
> > To: Cam Fitzgerald; Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users; bldg-sim-
>
> > subscribe at onebuilding.org <mailto:subscribe at onebuilding.org>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling
>
> >
>
> > Also, see the note at the bottom of Table G3.1.1A: "Where attributes
>
> > make a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the
>
> > predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire
>
> > building."  The USGBC/GBCI and ASHRAE have both ruled that the
>
> > predominant condition is determined by which type has the largest
>
> > percentage of the total area.
>
> >
>
> > I would recommend contacting the reviewers either through LEED-Online or
>
> > through the GBCI "Contact us" page (select the topic "Questions about
>
> > Review Comments") if you can show with area calculations that the
>
> > percentage of the residential quarters at the station is less than the
>
> > other functions.  The reviewers will probably count the vehicle bays as
>
> > part of the residential so I would do the same just to limit the
>
> > back-and-forth.
>
> >
>
> > Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>
> > [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Cam
>
> > Fitzgerald
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:07 AM
>
> > To: Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users;
>
> > bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling
>
> >
>
> > Patrick,
>
> >
>
> > If you look in Section 3.2 of 90.1-2004, the definition for
>
> > "residential" lists fire stations as the last example of residential
>
> > space types. Hope this helps.
>
> >
>
> > Cam Fitzgerald
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>
> > [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Patrick
>
> > J. O'Leary, Jr.
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:51 AM
>
> > To: equest-users; bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org>
>
> > Subject: [Equest-users] fire station modeling
>
> >
>
> > has anyone received a comment on eac1 requiring the use of residential
>
> > ptac systems in the baseline building when modeling fire stations?  i
>
> > have seen the following comments on two fire station projects recently
>
> > with no further background material concerning the source of the
>
> > residential determination from the reviewers than the statements below.
>
> >
>
> > this, to me, is not what previous usgbc cirs, 90.1 (2004 or 2007), or
>
> > the 90.1 user's manual say.   per 90.1 and the previous usgbc cirs the
>
> > predominant use of the building, based on sf and number of stories,
>
> > determine what type of systems are used.  for a building less than
>
> > 20,000 sf this is typically going to be packaged gas or heat pump units.
>
> >
>
> > project 1 (leed v2.2 project)
>
> > "The Baseline system type modeled does not seem consistent with the
>
> > system mapping from Table G.3.1.1.A. Please note the GBCI has determined
>
> >
>
> > that Fire Stations are considered residential for the purposes of
>
> > completing EAc1 credit.  Please confirm that the Baseline system (and
>
> > principle heating source) was modeled correctly, or revise the system
>
> > type to reflect ASHRAE modeling protocol. Also, if any exceptions are
>
> > utilized from G3.1.1 please provide a explanation for the exception."
>
> >
>
> > project 2 (leed v2.2 project)
>
> > "5. Table 1.4 indicates the Baseline Primary HVAC system as a type #3,
>
> > which does not appear to be consistent with the system mapping from
>
> > Table G.3.1.1.A. The sleeping quarters (residential) should be modeled
>
> > as a system type #1 and the non-residential areas as a type #3. Please
>
> > provide a narrative confirming that the Baseline model sleeping quarters
>
> >
>
> > have been modeled using System #1, Constant Volume PTAC, with DX
>
> > cooling, and Fossil Fuel boiler. The narrative shall also include size
>
> > of equipment modeled within the Baseline model. Revise Baseline Unitary
>
> > Equipment Cooling and Boiler parameters to match Tables 6.8.1A and
>
> > 6.8.1E of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 and include Proposed Unitary Equipment
>
> > Cooling and size of the boilers. Please revise the Baseline and Proposed
>
> >
>
> > models, and update the Template, and supporting documentation as
>
> > required. Please confirm that the parameters defined in section G3.1.3.2
>
> >
>
> > through G3.1.2.5 have been modeled, and that the mandatory requirements
>
> > of Section 6.4 have been adhered to. Please add sufficient information
>
> > to Table 1.4 to confirm that the Baseline boiler systems were modeled in
>
> >
>
> > accordance with these requirements"
>
> >
>
> > the usgbc cir & 90.1 references:
>
> >
>
> > 1.  USGBC Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED (page 17) - Table 2.2, CIR
>
> > dated 8/26/2008 and 4/23/2008. "Clarifies how to determine baseline HVAC
>
> >
>
> > system(s) for building eligible for more than one system type."
>
> > -"CIR dated 8/26/2008 states that for projects with multiple uses in the
>
> >
>
> > same building, predominant condition as determined by total floor area
>
> > should determine system type for entire building.  Ruling references
>
> > note following Table G3.1.1A in ASHRAE 90.1-2004:  Where attributes make
>
> >
>
> > a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the
>
> > predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire
>
> > building."
>
> > -"CIR dated 4/23/2008 confirms that when conditions do not vary per
>
> > exceptions to G3.1.1, project teams must use single baseline system type
>
> >
>
> > for entire building.  HOwever, if project includes multiple detached
>
> > buildings, each building can use different system type; this is
>
> > addressed in Chapter 4 of document."
>
> >
>
> > 2.  90.1-2004 Table G3.1.1A Note 3 - "Where attributes make a building
>
> > eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the predominant
>
> > condition to determine the system type for the entire building."
>
> >
>
> > 3.  90.1-2004 Section G3.1.1 Exception (a) - "Use additional system
>
> > type(s) for non-predominant conditions (i.e. residential/nonresidential
>
> > or heating source) if those conditions apply to more than 20,000 sf of
>
> > conditioned floor area." (Note the fire stations in the two projects
>
> > with the comments above are each less than 14,000 sf of conditioned
>
> > floor area.)
>
> >
>
> > 4.  90.1-2004 User's Manual - "The scope of Standard 90.1, in terms of
>
> > residential spaces, applies just to spaces with four or more stories, so
>
> >
>
> > low-rise residential is excluded."
>
> >
>
> > regards,
>
> > patrick
>

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