[Bldg-sim] Internal mass modeling guidance in E+?

[Joe Huang]

I've had the same experience when comparing simulation results to measured indoor 
temperatures for a typical house in California. The actual house temperatures were 
substantially more flattened and lagged compared to what the simulation showed.  It may be 
that getting the right number on the amount of internal mass might not necessarily result 
in a house model that responds similar to a real building.  Then you have to decide 
whether to "tune" the model to be physically correct or thermally correct!

Joe

Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"


On 1/14/2013 7:30 PM, Justin Spencer wrote:
> There's also an issue here about whether or not there's any modeling of internal 
> partitions or fixtures included in your model. My personal experience in modeling 
> residential models is that they always lag more than you expect, so I've regularly 
> responded by jacking up the internal mass. I certainly can fit metered HVAC data a lot 
> better when I add mass beyond what the BABM suggests. I've guessed that's because my 
> partitions don't quite match the amount of mass we're interacting with.
>
> I get what Doug is saying that there isn't much temperature change occurring in his 
> bookshelf, but when you have literally several tons of exposed mass, even a degree or 
> two of temperature change is quite a bit of heat. Those granite counters currently in 
> fashion do something for the building mass.
>
> What's funny about this is that the conventional rule of thumb is that residential 
> construction is "light" and has little impact from mass, while commercial buildings are 
> "heavy" and have lots of mass impacts. My personal experience in studying this is that 
> mass is extremely important in residential construction because they "float" a lot of 
> the time and also have higher solar gains than commercial spaces.
>
> One possible area of fruitful research I've thought about is to try and get some utility 
> direct load control data and look at the "response time" of residences in terms of how 
> long it took to have the temperature rise a certain amount when the HVAC system was 
> constrained. You'd at least get some good data about how responsive the houses are 
> supposed to be and alter what you can in your models to get them to better match real 
> life (whether or not you actually figured out the root cause of the problem in the model).
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Doug Hittle <hittle.doug at gmail.com 
> <mailto:hittle.doug at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I believe that E+ and predecessors take/took what ever was described
>     as "internal mass" and parsed it into an equivalent "partition" of
>     some "equivalent"  area. This can lead to some counter intuitive
>     results. Most might expect that "internal" or "thermal" mass is going
>     to moderate energy transfer ("store"). But suppose I describe a
>     banquet hall full of folding mdf or plywood tables (light weight).
>     Compared to an empty room, the area available to absorb radiation and
>     convect it to the room is increased by easily 1/3. All of a sudden the
>     room is "fast" and energy gains are translated into cooling loads much
>     more quickly.
>
>     So let's agree with Joe that your question can be answered by "walking
>     around." In looking around my office I find that one partition is
>     covered with book cases and that the other side of the partition is
>     also covered with books. If I thought this was an important feature
>     that needed to be modeled (which I don't and which isn't) I would not
>     describe any internal equivalent mass, I would simply describe a
>     partition made up of books-air space-gyp board wall-air space-books.
>
>     But why do I think this is irrelevant additional work? I can weigh
>     some books to determine their density. We think books are heavy but
>     imagine putting an equivalent volume of concrete in your backpack.
>     Then they are not so "thermally massey". Also the books never receive
>     direct sunlight and the temperature in my office varies little because
>     it is in my heavily insulated, air tight home. Since the guzinta
>     equals the guzouta over time and since the guzinta and guzouta, even
>     for this massive double book lined partition, are near zero because
>     the materials are at constant temperature, more or less, the mass of
>     the books is not very important to the room energy balance.
>
>     I don't know what thermal mass is anyway. The term must have evolved
>     partly from passive solar designs, where energy storing materials
>     exposed to the sun are important,  and from the brick trade
>     association who left a confusing legacy of claims that a masonry house
>     had a higher R-value because of the "thermal mass." Mind you I think
>     bricks are great, I have some myself. However, there is nothing in the
>     definition of R-value that is labeled "brick."
>
>     My apologies Dr. Wang. I expect that what I have just said is more or
>     less useless as an answer to you questions. However, a productive
>     guide to a first approach might be found in:
>
>     Consider a Spherical Cow: A Course in Environmental Problem Solving, John Harte
>
>     It is easier to bound a problem than to defend anybody's guess at the
>     mean. The correct answer always seems to be "It Depends."
>
>     Doug Hittle
>
>
>
>
>     On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Qinpeng Wang <qpwang at gatech.edu
>     <mailto:qpwang at gatech.edu>> wrote:
>     >
>     > Dear colleagues,
>     >
>     > I'm looking into furniture/internal mass modeling in energy models particularly
>     within the environment of EnergyPlus but also not limited to that.
>     >
>     > I have two questions I guess:
>     >
>     > 1, Are there any modeling guide or reference building report that may give
>     recommendations/instructions on how to represent furniture/internal mass inside a
>     building if there is no much detailed information? I guess all I'm asking is are
>     there any published data-set, or default values in terms of material property and
>     area to represent furniture like what could be easily found about schedules and
>     occupancy density?
>     >
>     > COMNET modeling guide has only one paragraph about it and it mentioned "The
>     interior thermal mass and modeling assumptions in the baseline building shall be the
>     same as the proposed design."
>     > Currently what I have is from Building America House Simulation Protocols: "The
>     internal mass of furniture and contents shall be equal to 8 lb/ft2 of conditioned
>     floor space. For solar distribution purposes, lightweight furniture covering 40% of
>     the floor area shall be assumed."
>     >
>     > 2, DOE reference commercial buildings have internal mass objects in the idf. file,
>     where does the information come from?
>     >
>     > Appreciate your input!
>     >
>     > Best,
>     >
>     > Qinpeng
>     >
>     > --
>     >
>     > Qinpeng Wang, PhD Student
>     >
>     > College of Architecture
>     >
>     > Georgia Institute of Technology
>     >
>     > Atlanta, GA 30332-0155
>     >
>     >
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