[Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

[Nick Caton]

Arpan,

 

I just checked myself as I haven't tried the wizard atria options
recently - it appears I was wrong and you can "multi-level" + "open to
below" options for single-level shells representing floors above the
ground level, provided you use the "immediately above" option to locate
those levels.  The conditioned height defined for the first level of the
atrium determines the final space height, but also the height of the
associated roof surfaces - kinda wonky end-results if those are in the
middle of the building (roof would be shaded for the most part)...

 

It also appears a changing atrium shape doesn't prevent surface
intersections/overlap from occurring... Partitions are not created for
spaces adjacent to an 'open to below' space, with an end-result being
the only "thermal tie" between the atrium and the other zones would be
at the first level.

 

End-results seem inconsistent depending on what options I choose, and
I'm unsure whether the overlapping/intersecting surfaces generated may
have stability implications down the road for a complex model, so I'm
hesitant to recommend this route without others' approval... does anyone
else have recent experience with the wizard-level atrium options have
thoughts to share?

 

~Nick

 

 

 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick
Caton
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 3:40 PM
To: Arpan Bakshi
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

 

What you're referring to is something I brought up in my first bullet -
these these wizard-level atrium options, useful as they may be, are
limited in application to multi-story shells.  If you need to define
unique zone maps (or 'floor plates') for each level, then you're stuck
defining unique shells for each level, which means you can't pursue
those automated atrium options.

 

If the simplification could be justified (the same zone map / "floor
plate" could be applied to each level) by the project's geometries, then
I'd happily scrap the process below in favor of using the wizard
features to define a multi-story atrium - it'd be much less work, though
the system-side coordination/analysis would still be necessary.

 

~Nick

 



 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: Arpan Bakshi [mailto:arpanbakshi at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 3:23 PM
To: Nick Caton
Cc: Chris Jones; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

 

Nick,

 

Great input. I am curious how deletion of atria zones in ddedit compares
to the multi-level space zone characteristic option while you are
creating geometry. There is an allowance for gain assignment to only
zone-lower portion.

 

Arpan

 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
wrote:

Hi Chris,

 

Some running thoughts you might consider - all this in concert might get
the job done, in any case it's what I'd try first:

-          Varying "floorplates"/zoning for each floor means you need
unique shells per floor, which means you can't use any of the
"open-to-above/below" approaches to making an atrium with the wizards.
That simplifies the discussion somewhat: you'll need to define this
atrium somehow "manually."

-          I would draw out the "catwalk corridors" (assuming they're
covered and separately conditioned) on their respective shell-floors.
If they're open to the atrium I'd ignore them entirely.

-          I would finish everything up in the wizards, and upon
entering detailed mode delete every created space/zone that's part of
the "atrium," excepting the top level's, which should include any
roof/skylight surfaces and be retained.  Delete any child surfaces
associated with these atrium zones excepting any interior partitions to
the perimeter zones - if those exist, move the interior partitions to be
a child component of the appropriate perimeter zone first before
deleting the atrium zone.  You might be above to avoid this scenario in
the wizards by defining the atrium zones LAST at the custom zone
definition dialogs for each shell... not sure but worth a shot.

-          I would modify the space geometries (volume) and its internal
loads (# of people should account for the catwalks if they're open) to
match the full volume of the atrium

-          Assign a SUM system as a placeholder to the atrium - goal
being to have all its loads handled by the systems serving the perimeter
spaces 

-          I would use the 2D view of each shell to modify all internal
walls "open" to the atrium  in the actual design to be of type "AIR,"
and to simultaneously ensure their parent space is associated to the
large, common atrium space.  I think this will correctly tie the
atrium's internal loads to the others thermally... this is why we took
care to keep those and not delete them along with the wizard-generated
atrium spaces.

-          I would use the "DIRECT" option for the HVAC systems' return
air path, rather than the plenum/duct options - I think this will
indirectly ensure the heat gains/losses of any atrium skylights/roofs
and the collective internal heat gains in the atrium find their way into
the return air stream

 

I can't say 100% whether this is all you'd need to do, but it's a game
plan I would start with.  To make a comment regarding accuracy:  It's
probably fair to say eQuest, which doesn't model complex CFD on an
hourly basis, may not be as accurate in any end-case as some more costly
software options may be for a large atrium as you're describing.  This
approach should be sufficient however for getting into the right
ballpark, provided those "think" items above hold true (you might want
to hold off for others' input).

 

 

Best of luck - sounds like an interesting project to say the least =)!

 

~Nick

 

 

PS:  I've never been compensated for my advice on these lists, and I'm
not about to start asking, but neither have I taken on any liability or
promise of availability as a formal instructor...  That said, I wouldn't
go home and cry myself to sleep if someone found anything valuable
enough to compensate ^_^.

 

cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB

 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com <http://www.smithboucher.com>  

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chris Jones
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:21 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org


Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes

 

The topic I consider advanced is modelling different floor plate shapes
on each floor - with a multi-storey atrium in the middle.  The atrium
has corridor catwalks for crossing from one side of the building to
another.  Supply air is transferred into the atrium from the surrounding
spaces - the atrium is a return air plenum for multiple air handlers.  


I would gladly pay for a step by step tutorial on setting up the
geometry for such a building.




I've been in discussions with those who make a business of eQuest/DOE2
instruction regarding this issue... I think a major reason we don't see
many 'advanced' classes is: it would be very hard to develop a
rubric/syllabus for an 'advanced' group of learners as it would seem
there aren't many 'advanced' topics that aren't extremely
system/project-specific (therefore seemingly of little interest to a
group of learners at large).   
 
One exception that comes to mind that would probably be of common
interest might be the evaluation and creation of chiller & heatpump
performance curves - that skillset is frankly tough to self-learn (it
took me a long while and multiple projects)... 
 
As an aside:  I might also cite a real-world experience where a local
rep for Carrier hosted an event that included discussion/instruction for
a single, narrow 'advanced' eQuest topic: geothermal well-field design
using eQuest/DOE2.  The room was packed*!  I hope more equipment reps in
time will recognize the value and potential draw when advanced eQuest
topic instruction is offered, even if only for a very narrow sort of
system/topic.
 
If you really would like formal, 'advanced' instruction, you might be
best-advised to come up with a list of topics you want
instruction/guidance on (make your own personal rubric), and share that
list either publicly on the lists or directly with those who offer
training services - you may be able to then filter out who is able and
is willing to teach you some or all of your desired instruction
individually, and at what cost.  
 
~Nick
 
* I would be remiss to not mention Anthony Hardman (frequent contributor
to these lists) provided that instruction, and it was excellent.
 


Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel.  416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005


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