[Equest-users] Ground temperatures
Joe Huang
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Thu Oct 24 20:07:50 PDT 2013
The ground temperatures in the EnergyPlus EPW should be exactly the same
those in the DOE-2 BIN of the same weather file, because I remember
extracting the GTEMP subroutine from the DOE-2 weather packer and
providing it to the EnergyPlus development team some 15 years ago or so.
Joe
On 10/24/2013 7:36 PM, Simge Andolsun wrote:
> Dear Joe Huang,
>
> Yes, I am aware of this. I am trying to make the ground heat transfer
> calculation parameters I will use in EnergyPlus as similar as possible
> to those in eQuest in order to prevent them from being the cause of
> variation between the two programs. So, regardless of how unreliable
> or approximate these ground temperatures may be, I am OK with this at
> the moment. But, thank you very much for making this point. It is very
> true.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Joe Huang
> <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>> wrote:
>
> Simge,
>
> If you know what's happening to the ground temperatures in DOE-2,
> you should then know that they are calculated by a sine-curve
> equation developed by Tamami Kusuda in the early 1980's that takes
> up only 10 lines of code in the DOE-2 weather packer, using
> default values for soil diffusivity and ignoring the effects of
> water table, surface evapotranspiration, or geothermal anomalies.
> In other words, these ground temperatures are extremely approximate.
>
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
> (o)(925)388-0265 <tel:%28925%29388-0265>
> (c)(510)928-2683 <tel:%28510%29928-2683>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
>
> On 10/24/2013 6:45 PM, Simge Andolsun wrote:
>> Kapil hi! :) Great to hear from you!
>> Dear Joe and Nick,
>>
>> Thanks for all your responses.
>>
>> I actually know what's happening to the ground temperatures in
>> DOE-2, how they are used in ground heat transfer calculations and
>> their effect on overall building energy consumption. I just
>> wanted to know how to make eQuest plot these temperatures for me.
>> Thanks to y'all, I managed to do it. But, thank you so much for
>> responding with this much detail!
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Simge Andolsun, PhD.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Kapil Upadhyaya
>> <KapilU at kirksey.com <mailto:KapilU at kirksey.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Simge,
>>
>> Do keep in mind that in DOE2 these are fixed monthly averages
>> used for all hours of the month; these are derived by the
>> ground reaching monthly-average outside air temperature at a
>> lag of 3 months.
>>
>> Ground Temperature will have little effect on loads/energy in
>> Houston for typical buildings. If you are simulating
>> geothermal heat exchange or radiant heating (thru
>> slab-on-grade), then the investigation will be time worth
>> spent.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> *Kapil Upadhyaya, LEED AP*
>> Associate
>>
>> *Kirksey* | Architecture
>> 6909 Portwest Drive | Houston Texas 77024 |www.kirksey.com
>> <http://www.kirksey.com>
>> o 713 426 7508 <tel:713%C2%A0426%C2%A07508> | f 713 850 7308
>> <tel:713%C2%A0850%C2%A07308> |kapilu at kirksey.com
>> <mailto:kapilu at kirksey.com>
>>
>> *2012-2013 Firm of the Year *
>> Texas Society of Architects
>>
>> *From:*Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com
>> <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:55 PM
>> *To:* Joe Huang; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Ground temperatures
>>
>> I haven’t tried Joe’s suggested tool (yet), but here’s the
>> hourly report variable you’re looking for:
>>
>> (Rankine conversion reference)
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine_scale>
>>
>> You get here double clicking one of the hourly report items
>> in the component tree under the “project and site” tab. You
>> can view the results by running the simulation then either
>> opening the resulting .csv in the project directory or
>> clicking the “hourly results” button on the top right of the
>> “detailed results viewer,” which opens the same file. Within
>> that file scroll to the far right to check out any custom
>> report variables you’ve included for the project.
>>
>> Such an hourly report builds upon Joe’s observation – it
>> appears the monthly ground temperatures are averaged into 12
>> values over the year, then applied to each month on an hourly
>> basis for the simulation. I can’t speak to whether this is a
>> trait specific to eQuest and/or the DOE-2 engine.
>>
>> ~Nick
>>
>> cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB**
>>
>> **
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E. *
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036 <tel:913.344.0036>
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617 <tel:913.345.0617>
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com <http://www.smithboucher.com>
>>
>> *From:*equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Joe Huang
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:18 PM
>> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Ground temperatures
>>
>> Correction to previous e-mail, meant to say
>>
>> "By the way, I think that DOE-2 should do some smoothing or
>> interpolation of the monthly ground temperatures; right now
>> if you look at ..."
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joe Huang
>>
>> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>>
>> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
>>
>> Moraga CA 94556
>>
>> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>>
>> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>>
>> (o)(925)388-0265 <tel:%28925%29388-0265>
>>
>> (c)(510)928-2683 <tel:%28510%29928-2683>
>>
>> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>>
>> On 10/24/2013 12:15 PM, Joe Huang wrote:
>>
>> In my opinion, the easiest way to get the ground temperatures
>> would not be through DOE-2 Hourly Reports, although I'm sure
>> that can be done, but by reading them from the weather file
>> using the WTHFMT2 utility program that converts the file from
>> binary to text. There are just 12 numbers for monthly ground
>> temperatures, shown on line 2 of the *.FMT files. By the
>> way, I think that DOE-2 does some smoothing or interpolation
>> of the monthly ground temperatures; right now if you look at
>> the hourly heat transfer through Underground walls or floors,
>> you'll see a wierd staircase effect with the same load for a
>> whole month, and then a jump to a different load the next
>> month, etc.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joe Huang
>>
>> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>>
>> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
>>
>> Moraga CA 94556
>>
>> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>>
>> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>>
>> (o)(925)388-0265 <tel:%28925%29388-0265>
>>
>> (c)(510)928-2683 <tel:%28510%29928-2683>
>>
>> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>>
>> On 10/24/2013 11:05 AM, Simge Andolsun wrote:
>>
>> Dear eQuest Users,
>>
>> Would you please let me know which report would give me the
>> deep ground temperatures used in ground heat transfer
>> calculations of eQuest? I used to select an hourly report
>> variable to make DOE-2.1e report these values, but I am not
>> sure how to get these values from eQuest. Would you help me
>> with this?
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance for your help,
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Simge Andolsun, PhD.
>>
>>
>>
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