[bldg-sim] Radiant Heating/Cooling

[Peter Simmonds]

Not the ones under design. But the patagonia distribution center in Reno Nevada has published data on the energy costs for the 170,000 sf distribution building consumed less energy than the 22,00 sf office buildings. The distribution center was a radiant ceiling panels with displacement ventilation and the office building was traditional rooftop VAV.
I have some data on european buildings that also support the energy reduction of radiant systems. And before you ask the next question, why dont we have any data for American Buildings? the answer is because we havent built enough at present, but we will.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon McHugh [mailto:mchugh at h-m-g.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 11:19 AM
To: Peter Simmonds
Subject: RE: [bldg-sim] Radiant Heating/Cooling


Peter,

Have these savings been supported by metered results in any of these
buildings?

Thanks,
 Jon McHugh, PE, LC
Heschong Mahone Group Inc.
11626 Fair Oaks Blvd #302
Fair Oaks, CA 95628 (Sacramento)
(916)962-7001 ext 38
(916)962-0101 FAX
e-mail: mchugh at h-m-g.com
URL: www.h-m-g.com


-----Original Message-----
From: postman at gard.com [mailto:postman at gard.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Simmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:47 AM
To: bldg-sim at gard.com
Subject: [bldg-sim] Radiant Heating/Cooling

I do not fully agree with this statement. I have been using radiant
systems in buildings for more than 20 years and with the correct
application the energy comsumption compared to a traditional system, say
overhead VAV can vary from 15% to 30% savings. At present, here in
California project such as The Water and Life Museum, Los Angeles Valley
College, Westminster Cultural Center and the Childrens Museum of Los
Angeles are all showing substantial savings when integrating radiant
systems into the designs (compared to an overhead VAV system. Most of
these designs are primarily cooling dominated and that probably makes
this statement very suprising and of course I am bias. I have published
several ASHRAE papers on the potential savings and increased comfort of
radiant systems. Another little project I forgot to mention was the
Bangkok airport project which will have about 270,000 m2 of radinat
cooled floor and the predicted energy savings were in the order of 40%.
I dont think this forum is a place to say mine is bigger than yours, but
Rick Strand and David Sheatzle have been very progressive in trying to
get a radiant model in energyplus. A model that works and one that can
be applied by enginerrs designing real buildings.


Peter Simmonds, Ph.D.
IBE Consulting Engineers
5910 Lemona Ave. 3rd Floor
Van Nuys, CA 91411

tel: 818-947-0000 #246
fax:818-947-0047
cell: 818-219-1284


-----Original Message-----
From: Edward F. Sowell [mailto:sowell at fullerton.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:43 PM
To: bldg-sim at gard.com
Subject: [bldg-sim] Radiant Heating/Cooling


This is a claim made primarily by the industry making radiant equipment.
I have never seen convincing evidence. It has always seemed to me to be
a second-order effect at best.

Ed Sowell

>
>
> In your research with radiant heating cooling savings, have you found 
> any energy "savings" that can be attributed directly to the use of the

> radiant system vs other systems (air supply in particular).  For 
> example, I have seen some papers that note that the heating setpoint 
> can be relaxed while still maintaining thermal comfort with a radiant 
> system.
>
>
> At 10:47 07/04/2004, you wrote:
> >Dear All,
> >
> >For those interested in the simulation of radiant
> heating/cooling systems,
> >IRC has developed a semi-analytical model for integration in energy 
> >simulation software that use the one-dimensional numerical modeling 
> >to calculate the heat transfer within the building construction
assemblies.
> >
> >The model combines the one-dimensional model of the energy simulation

> >software with a two-dimensional analytical model.  The advantage of 
> >this model over the one-dimensional one is that it accurately predict
> the contact
> >surface temperature of the circuit-tubing and the adjacent
> medium, required
> >to compute the boiler/chiller power, and the minimum and maximum 
> >ceiling/floor temperatures, required for local moisture condensation 
> >(ceiling cooling systems), thermal discomfort (heating floor systems)

> >and controls.  The model predictions for slab-on-grade heating
> systems compared
> >very well with the results from a full two-dimensional numerical
model.
> >
> >The model was implemented in the Canadian software HOT3000 and the UK

> >software ESP-r as a plant component. The implementation of this
> model in the
> >ESP-r program offers additional flexibilities to the radiant
> system designer
> >community, mainly:
> >*       Designers can use any control algorithm possible in
> ESP-r with the
> >new plant component (e.g.., use the flux or temperature control,
> and compare
> >their performance).
> >*       Designers can specify any number of radiant surfaces of
> the building
> >fed by the same or different heat source.
> >*       Designers can size realistic radiant systems, and get
realistic
> >energy consumption (from the source side) and cost.
> >
>

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