[Bldg-sim] Coupling outdoor-indoor simulations

David Bradley bradley at tess-inc.com
Mon May 4 09:58:22 PDT 2009


Mohamad,
I am not sure what to recommend in the case of ESP-r but in the case of 
TRNSYS, I would recommend writing (or contracting someone to write for 
you) a model of the air/soil/plant and coupling it to the rest of your 
simulation. Such new models (Types) can be written in Fortran or C++ and 
can be integrated into the standard package relatively easily if you 
have an appropriate compiler. Some years ago, we worked on an energy 
simulation of a greenhouse and were provided (I believe) with some 
algorithms for evapotransipration from the plants. It was a hydroponic 
facility so we didn't need to worry about soil but I imagine that 
algorithms exist there as well.
Kind regards,
David


M F A Ramadan wrote:
> So, Dear Leen:
>
> It seems that the most suitable coupled softwares are TRNSYS for indoor
> simulations with TRNFLOW or COMIS for outdoor simulations.   
> But what about different plants effects; should TRNFLOW/COMIS or ESP-r stand for
> the air-plant-soil system? I.e. water content in the soil and hence
> evapotranspiration ...etc? or should i use the 'equation writer' for entering
> such needed equations? If yes what about the validity and the compatability
> with the whole TRNFLOW or COMIS model?
>
> Excuse me Leen for the many questions.
>
> Best regards,
> Mohamad.
>
> Quoting leen peeters <l.f.r.peeters at gmail.com>:
>
>   
>> Mohamad,
>>
>> Well ... for the programs I am familiar with:
>>
>> TRNSYS will need to be coupled to TRNFLOW or COMIS in order to correctly
>> account for the influence of outdoor air velocity (and thus pressure)
>> variations. The coupling is possible, however it will require paying the
>> license of both programs. I estimate a 3500 euros for both. On the other
>> hand, it has a good interface. It runs smoothly in a windows environment.
>> And it has an 'equation writer', which is in fact a very easy way to write
>> some simple models without going into the code.
>> ESP can handle the fluid flow levels, but I would suggest to use it on a
>> linux-platform for reasons of stability. Don't be affraid of the
>> sometimes less fancy interface. There is a good and activce ESP community.
>> ESP is free of charge. And parts of the code are very well documented, which
>> could help you understanding the models in case the 'help' is not detailed
>> enough. However, it is generally known as rather hard to learn to work with,
>> a positive and motivated spirit can manage it in a reasonable time.
>> I do not know whether IDA-ICE can handle wind induced flows. It is mainly
>> developped for evaluations of energy use and thermal comfort in buildings.
>> However I have never worked with EnergyPlus, it has some methods for
>> estimation of wind speed as a function of height. As it is developed in the
>> US, I suppose it has a well-worked out calculation strategy for ventialtion
>> and air flows in buildings.
>>
>>
>> There are many building energy simulation codes, check out the document that
>> compares many of the codes:
>>
>>     
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/tools_directory/pdfs/contrasting_the_capabilities_of_building_energy_performance_simulation_programs_v1.0.pdf
>   
>> Note that the document is a few years old already. Some of the latest
>> developments of the different codes will not yet be incorporated in the
>> tables.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Leen
>>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:36 PM, M F A Ramadan
>> <M.Fahmy at sheffield.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Many thanks Leen for your concern:
>>>
>>> My case should consider almost all outdoor effects. This include shading
>>> from
>>> buildings and trees, wind, temperatures, humidity, plant
>>> eveportanspiration;
>>> i.e. almost a complete environmental details.
>>>
>>> And yes, the aim to model the possible impact/influence of a dynamically
>>> varying
>>> outdoor situation on the indoor environment.
>>>
>>> What is your suggestions?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mohamad.
>>> -------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting leen peeters <l.f.r.peeters at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Mohamad,
>>>>
>>>> could you describe the problem in some more detail?
>>>> Is the aim to model to possible impact/influence of a dynamically
>>>>         
>> varying
>>     
>>>> outdoor situation on the indoor environment?
>>>> What is it you want to take into account? Shading/wind/outdoor
>>>> temperatures/....
>>>>
>>>> The complexity of your problem or even the parameters you might want to
>>>> consider will influence the selection of the software that one will
>>>> recommend.
>>>> So the more specific you could be, the better suited the answer you will
>>>>         
>>> get
>>>       
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Leen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:11 PM, M F A Ramadan
>>>> <M.Fahmy at sheffield.ac.uk>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Dear all:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if any one used or heard about softwares that couples outdoor
>>>>> (urban) and indoor thermal (comfort and/or energy) analysis in one
>>>>>           
>>>> package.
>>>>         
>>>>> Any guide would be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mohamad.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>           
>>>
>>>       
>
>
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