[Bldg-sim] Large Process Loads and Baseline Systems

Will Mak wmak at epsteinglobal.com
Thu Jun 2 14:02:07 PDT 2011


Aaron,

 

Thanks for the much appreciated feedback. This seems to be the same conclusion we are coming to also. It seems that data center, manufacturing, process driving projects will have little chance to meet the require of EAp2 unless you use an exceptional calculation method. However, even if you go down that route, there is still a risk of whether the savings you will try to claim will be enough to meet the minimum.

 

William Mak, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Design Engineer

EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction

Sustainability

600 West Fulton Street
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259

D: (312) 429-8116
F: (312) 429-8800

E: wmak at epsteinglobal.com
W: www.epsteinglobal.com <http://www.epsteinglobal.com/> 

þ Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

From: Dahlstrom, Aaron [mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:34 PM
To: Will Mak; Cheney
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Large Process Loads and Baseline Systems

 

Bill:

 

We have confronted the same difficult situation on industrial projects with greater than 50% costs due to process loads. We have found ourselves in more detailed discussions with process designers and process equipment vendors, working out the impact of different energy system decisions. 

 

One possible way to think about your unique process is to break it down into smaller, more manageable pieces, and describe how the small pieces use energy efficiency technology.

 

If there are motor loads, is there an opportunity for premium efficiency motors and variable speed drives?

If there is combustion, are there a variety of burner / heat exchanger designs with a range of efficiencies? Is it possibile to economize stack losses?

If there is refrigeration, are there opportunities for recovering waste heat to serve other needs?

Etc. etc., based on the specific pieces of the process.

 

It's something of a gamble to know if the efficiency choices you are making really are better than what any other sensible designer who wasn't considering the energy impact would do. In the end it can come down to the judgment of the modeler and the LEED Reviewer, which may not be the most comfortable place but seems to be where we live on these types of projects. 

 

Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP

In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 

d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290

e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com <http://www.in-posse.com/>  | akf web: www.akfgroup.com <http://www.akfgroup.com/> 

 

 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Will Mak
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:16 PM
To: Cheney
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Large Process Loads and Baseline Systems

 

I guess that's the only possible route we can take. What possible options do we have if we cannot document a market standard equipment design? Their process is very unique and there are only a couple firms that do the process this firm does. 

 

I agree, even if we can get the baseline system variance to be approved, it will insignificant since the process load takes up the majority of the energy consumption.

 

William Mak, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Design Engineer

EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction

600 West Fulton Street
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259

D: (312) 429-8116
F: (312) 429-8800

E: wmak at epsteinglobal.com
W: www.epsteinglobal.com <http://www.epsteinglobal.com/> 

þ Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

From: Cheney [mailto:chenyu73 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Will Mak
Cc: Martin Roy ing. LEED AP; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Large Process Loads and Baseline Systems

 

Hi William, 

 

The "large process load" issue has been discussed extensively. Basically, the process loads are not allowed to be omitted from baseline and proposed design models. For your case, without touching the process loads, you probably have little chance to claim energy credit even you are allowed to modify the baseline. The possible solution will be the Process loads itself. See whether you are able to claim savings due to the introducition of high efficient equipments. Bear in mind, reduction of energy use in process loads is allowed as long as it is well documented with a comparison between market standard equipments (baseline) and energy-efficient ones (proposed design). By searching this forum or online, you will be able to find more info on this subject.  

 

Regards, 

 

Cheney

 

LinkedIN @ http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen/27/637/72b <http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen/27/637/72b>  

 

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Will Mak <wmak at epsteinglobal.com> wrote:

Yes the project is a LEED 2009 project.

 

William Mak, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Design Engineer

EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction

600 West Fulton Street
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259

D: (312) 429-8116 <tel:%28312%29%20429-8116> 
F: (312) 429-8800 <tel:%28312%29%20429-8800> 

E: wmak at epsteinglobal.com
W: www.epsteinglobal.com <http://www.epsteinglobal.com/> 

þ Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

From: Martin Roy ing. LEED AP [mailto:martin.roy at mra.qc.ca] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:57 AM
To: Will Mak
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Large Process Loads and Baseline Systems

 

Hi William, 
We did a Leed warehouse herre in Canada but it was version NC 1.0, your 2.2 version.
In that case process energy has to be remove for comparaison with baseline.
We aslo can reclaim up to 2 credit in process energy i.e. heat recovery from refrigeration.
If it is Leed 2009 than you have to include process energy in baseline and proposed.

Hope this help

Martin



At 11:38 24/05/2011, Will Mak wrote:

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC1A28.AA99AA8A"

Hey all,
 
I'm about to begin a LEED energy model for a warehouse project that contains a very large process load. It will be a major renovation project. The building will be broken out as 50,000 sq ft office and 300,000 sq ft warehouse. The anticipated HVAC systems on the project are package rooftop units with DX cooling/gas heating for both the office and warehouse areas. The warehouse space requires cooling and heating.
 
Two issues that come to light:
 
1.       Large Process Load
a.       Anticipated process load will consume roughly 40-60% of the buildings annual energy consumption. The Exceptional calculation method has been considered. However, the process being done at this facility is extraordinary and there is not a "baseline" to compare savings off of.
2.       Baseline System
a.       Based on the size of the warehouse, System 7 will be modeled. This system is a packaged rooftop VAV with reheat with chilled water and hot water boiler system. Based on previous experience and preliminary modeling results, the baseline system will be more energy efficient than the package rooftop units with DX cooling/gas heating. There's been a suggestion by our team to request a LEED Interpretation and to possible change the baseline system to also packaged rooftop units with DX cooling/gas heating as that is typically designed for warehouse type facilities.
 
Based on these two issues, I am having a hard time foreseeing this project being able to hit the minimum 5% savings requirement on major renovations. I searched the LEED Interpretations database but didn't find one that dealt with a project that had both these issues.
 
Any suggestions? 
 
William Mak, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Design Engineer

EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction

600 West Fulton Street
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259

D: (312) 429-8116 <tel:%28312%29%20429-8116> 
F: (312) 429-8800 <tel:%28312%29%20429-8800> 
E: wmak at epsteinglobal.com
W: www.epsteinglobal.com <http://www.epsteinglobal.com/> 

þ Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
 
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