[Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection

[Arpan Bakshi]

On the eQUEST-side, my understanding has been that coupling energy recovery
with the dummy dedicated outdoor air unit creates indigestion in the
functioning of the DOAS. Anyone have similar experiences,
or ulterior insights?



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com> wrote:

>  I’m inclined to suggest you capitalize on that exception.
>
>
>
> From your description, it sounds like a reasonable reviewer would agree the
> proposed 100% OA ERV unit *is* serving ventilation air to the dwelling
> units, albeit via the corridors (unless your corridors need a bunch of
> ventilation air?).
>
>
>
> I think the only hangup that could make this exception not apply would be
> whether your building is a “multifamily building” in 90.1’s terms.
>
>
>
> This exception should simplify your baseline and, provided ERV makes sense
> for your proposed case and is well-designed, should better your relative
> performance.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* Jackson, Alan [mailto:ajackson at klingstubbins.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 01, 2011 3:14 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection
>
>
>
> One additional piece of information I am interested in is the handling of
> Section G3.1.2.10 Exhaust Air Energy Recovery. In the actual design a 10,000
> CFM ERV will be serving all the corridor spaces (9 in total). This unit will
> be 100% OA with energy recovery.
>
>
>
> Section G3.1.2.10 states that systems over 5,000 CFM require modeling
> energy recovery in the baseline. So it would seem I need to model energy
> recovery on the PTAC serving the corridor(s). Right? To do this I would
> actually be modeling a Packaged Rooftop Unit with the efficiencies of a PTAC
> because it’s not easy to implement heat recovery on a PTAC in Energyplus.
>
>
>
> The one twist to this is that in the 90.1 2007 Addendum w it states:
>
>
>
> *G3.1.2.10 Exhaust Air Energy Recovery*
>
> …
>
> *Exceptions: *If any of these exceptions apply, exhaust air
>
> energy recovery shall not be included in the *baseline*
>
> *building design.*
>
> …
>
> *i. Systems serving dwelling units in multifamily buildings.*
>
> * *
>
> The corridor is not a dwelling unit, but it was worth pointing that
> addendum note out.**
>
>
>
> Alan Jackson, LEED AP
>
> KlingStubbins
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Jackson, Alan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 9:54 AM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> Yes, it is well below 20,000 ft2 so I believe you are correct. Thanks for
> the help. I will proceed under the residential building system type.
>
>
>
> Alan Jackson, LEED AP
>
> KlingStubbins
>
>
>
> *From:* Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 9:32 AM
> *To:* Jackson, Alan; Cheney
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection
>
>
>
> So far as system type goes, consider that your building is first either
> Residential or Nonresidential, and your building type determines your
> baseline system.
>
>
>
> The only reason you’d have both building types (and thus 2  baseline system
> types) is if you have non-predominant conditions per exceptions to G3.1.1.
>
>
>
> If you’ve got >20,000SF of egress/back-of-house spaces, you might pursue a
> second baseline system type declaring non-predominant conditions, but for
> simplicity I’d be inclined to lump it all under one baseline type as part of
> a residential building, unless told otherwise.
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Jackson, Alan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 7:19 AM
> *To:* Cheney
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection
>
>
>
> Cheney
>
>
>
> Hey, thanks for the response. I agree, I think hybrid is the way to go in
> this scenario.
>
>
>
> One other issue I came across, since I not as familiar modeling residential
> buildings, is the way that egress areas are treated. ASHRAE list residential
> spaces as only including “guest rooms, living quarters, private living space
> and sleeping quarters.”
>
>
>
> Does this mean the residential corridors and stairs need to be System 7,
> and not PTAC, since the building is greater than 5 stories?
>
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
>
>
> Alan Jackson, LEED AP
>
> KlingStubbins
>
>
>
> *From:* Cheney [mailto:chenyu73 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 25, 2011 2:31 PM
> *To:* Jackson, Alan
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] App G Baseline WSHP w Boiler Injection
>
>
>
> Hi Jason,
>
>
>
> I will choose Fossil/Elec. Hybrid and PTAC for your design.
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Cheney
>
>
>
> LinkedIN @ http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen/27/637/72b
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Jackson, Alan <
> ajackson at klingstubbins.com> wrote:
>
> Hello, yes it’s another Appendix G Baseline question.
>
>
>
> Typical Residential Tower system with water-cooled heat pumps for the
> dwelling units. Tower Loop is closed system with a heat injection boiler for
> the winters (northeast climate). Heat injection boiler is natural gas fired.
>
>
>
> Is the Baseline “Electric and Other”? or “Fossil/Electric Hybrid”
>
>
>
> I have seen many postings about WSHP being modeled as “all electric”
> heating, but I am getting push back on this in the office because of the
> heat injection component. Any CIRs on this one? System is obviously very
> common.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Alan Jackson, LEED AP
> HVAC Project Engineer / BIM Team Leader
>
> KlingStubbins
>
>
>
>
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-- 

Arpan Bakshi
646/704-2880
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