[Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential?

[Dónal O'Connor]

Hi Cam,

I agree with the others that the "non-residential" areas such as common corridors, janitor, elec rooms etc on Floors 2-9 are there to support the residential areas and therefore should be classified as "residential". The "non-residential" areas on the main floor and the basement total approx. 19,000 sq. ft. which is under the 20,000 sq. ft. threshold specified in G3.1.1 Exception (a), so I will specify all areas as "residential" and assign to System 1/2.

Thanks again for all of your responses.

Cheers

Dónal

From: fitzgerald at sevengroup.com
To: maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net; jim at buildingperformanceteam.com; oconnor_dj at hotmail.com; rwattanasak at emoenergy.com; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential	or Non-Residential?
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 07:41:28 -0400

Good morning, all, Yes, dormitories are residential spaces (remember this also affects your baseline building envelope requirements). In this instance since the non-residential spaces total more than 20,000 square feet, an alternate HVAC system type should be selected for the predominant condition. Depending on the operating schedules, internal loads, etc. (the other exceptions to Section G3.1.1) using a third system type may be appropriate (type 3 or 4). Whether it is appropriate to count the common areas on the residential floors to determine the system type for the non-predominant condition could be argued either way. Before proceeding either way, I would suggest looking for any LEED Interpretations since the reviewer is likely to hold you to previously published interpretations. I also believe mixed-use residential projects are discussed in the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED 2009 (free to registered projects and available in LEED online under the credit resources tab). Hope this helps! Cam Fitzgerald Energy Opportunities/a 7group company   From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Maria Karpman
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 4:28 PM
To: 'Jim Dirkes'; 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? Yet another perspective is that when high-rise residential buildings are modeled with Systems 7/8 serving common spaces on each floor, even very modest proposed designs, such as minimally code compliant PTACs, often show hefty savings compared to the baseline because many of the prescribed Appendix G settings and controls misfire (e.g. 0.4 cfm/sf minimum setpoints for VAV reheat in G3.1.3.13). This is an issue for incentive programs that use Appendix G protocol, because they end up with some pretty ridiculous ECMs that on paper qualify for incentives.  Maria From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:34 PM
To: Maria Karpman; 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? I vote with Maria and Demba J.It is, however, very interesting to see all of the different perspectives! James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
www.buildingperformanceteam.com 
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653 From: Maria Karpman [mailto:maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:19 PM
To: 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; Jim Dirkes; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? I second the approach described by Demba. Rut wrote “Since your dormitory building contains some non-residential space types, you shouldn't use the building type to determine your Baseline, ie it's no longer truly a residential building type“. I disagree that presence of spaces such as electrical/mechanical rooms, corridors, stairs, multi-purpose rooms, etc. automatically means that this is not a residential building type. It is hard to imagine a dormitory, hotel, motel, or multifamily without these, and System 7/8 is hardly an appropriate baseline for such spaces (there would have to be a system modeled for each floor).  You should also remember that only the area of conditioned spaces as defined in 90.1 Section 3 is counted when determining baseline system type (G3.1.1), so spaces like electrical/mechanical or storage may not have to be factored in. Thanks,MariaFrom: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dónal O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:05 PM
To: Rut Wattanasak; Jim Dirkes; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? Hi all,

Thank you for your responses thus far.

I did a quick calculation of the areas. Total Residential Floor area is approx. 75,000 sq. ft. and total Non-residential  is approx. 50,000 sq. ft. The Non-residential areas include the basement, main floor multi-purpose rooms, lobbies, storage etc, and the common corridors, elec, janitor, lounge/study areas on Floors 2-9.

So if we are in agreement that the Residential areas are to use either System 1 or System 2, the next question is what are the Non-residential areas classified as? From Table G3.1.1A it appears the number of floors take precedence over the floor area, so as the Non-residential area extends over 10 floors, it should be classified as System 7 or System 8. Am I correct in saying that the number of floors takes precedence over the floor area?

Thanks again for your help and guidance.

Cheers

Dónal

 From: rwattanasak at emoenergy.com
To: jim at buildingperformanceteam.com; oconnor_dj at hotmail.com; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential?
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:33:21 +0000Per the exception noted by Mr Dirkes, I would model the Baseline building based on Table G3.1.1A; except with the dorm rooms, modeled them with System 1 or 2.  Here is how I come to this decision: Since your dormitory building contains some non-residential space types, you shouldn't use the building type to determine your Baseline, ie it's no longer truly a residential building typeDorm rooms still fall under the residential space type, so use residential Baseline systems (1 or 2) for those spaces"Other building and space types are considered nonresidential"  This statement allows the rest of the building to be modeled per standard baseline (area, # of floors, energy source). I see the same thought process applies to the mixed-use (commercial/apartments) as well.  With the rise of mixed-use commercial building, I'm sure we'll be seeing this type of scenario more often.  I welcome any comments or suggestions. Thanks, Rut WattanasakLEED AP BD+C   From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Jim Dirkes
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:53 PM
To: John Aulbach; Dónal O'Connor; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential?  However…..The notes in that table clarify as shown below.  I think the notes indicate that Donal’s “predominant” building type is residential.  It sounds as though there are some “non-predominant” types as well.  Take a look at G3.1.1’s Exceptions for a description of those. From 90.1-2007 Table G3.1.1A:Notes:Residential building types include dormitory, hotel, motel, and multifamily. Residential space types include guest rooms, living quarters, private living space, and sleeping quarters. Otherbuilding and space types are considered nonresidential  James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
www.buildingperformanceteam.com 
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653 From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of John Aulbach
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:47 PM
To: Dónal O'Connor; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? Sir: If the building is over 5 stories high believe that comes under Non-Residential. Period.  John Aulbach, PE From: Dónal O'Connor <oconnor_dj at hotmail.com>
To: Building Sim Forum <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential? Dear Bldg Sim,

I'm looking for guidance on the definition of a University Dormitory building that I'm modeling under LEED 2009, particularly referencing Table G3.1.1A Baseline HVAC System Types. The building has 9 storeys above grade with an underground basement, with a total floor area of approx. 125,000 sq. ft.

The Basement is primarily crawlspace, electrical, mechanical, student storage etc.

The Main Floor consists of a number of multi-purpose rooms, further storage facilities for bicycles, recycling etc, with 1/3 of the main floor plan dedicated to student residences.

The remaining floors, 2 - 9, are student residences with a number of break out/study rooms/lounge areas on each floor.

Is the building classified as "Residential", or is it considered "Nonresidential and More than 5 floors or > 150,000 sq. ft" due to the basement and main floor spaces not being "Residential"? Will I have to model the basement and the main floor separate from floors 2-9?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Dónal
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