[Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or Non-Residential?
Cam Fitzgerald
fitzgerald at sevengroup.com
Thu Apr 11 07:13:43 PDT 2013
Hi Dónal,
The public spaces (common corridors, lounges, and utility spaces) on the
residential floors are classified as non-residential and must be modeled
with a non-residential system type if the total area for these spaces is
more than 20,000 square feet. You can try another approach, but it is likely
that the reviewer will require you to change the model if you use
residential systems in the public spaces.
Cam Fitzgerald
Energy Opportunities/a 7group company
From: Dónal O'Connor [mailto:oconnor_dj at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:32 AM
To: Cam Fitzgerald; 'Maria Karpman'; 'Jim Dirkes'; 'Rut Wattanasak';
Building Sim Forum
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Hi Cam,
I agree with the others that the "non-residential" areas such as common
corridors, janitor, elec rooms etc on Floors 2-9 are there to support the
residential areas and therefore should be classified as "residential". The
"non-residential" areas on the main floor and the basement total approx.
19,000 sq. ft. which is under the 20,000 sq. ft. threshold specified in
G3.1.1 Exception (a), so I will specify all areas as "residential" and
assign to System 1/2.
Thanks again for all of your responses.
Cheers
Dónal
_____
From: fitzgerald at sevengroup.com
To: maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net; jim at buildingperformanceteam.com;
oconnor_dj at hotmail.com; rwattanasak at emoenergy.com;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 07:41:28 -0400
Good morning, all,
Yes, dormitories are residential spaces (remember this also affects your
baseline building envelope requirements). In this instance since the
non-residential spaces total more than 20,000 square feet, an alternate HVAC
system type should be selected for the predominant condition. Depending on
the operating schedules, internal loads, etc. (the other exceptions to
Section G3.1.1) using a third system type may be appropriate (type 3 or 4).
Whether it is appropriate to count the common areas on the residential
floors to determine the system type for the non-predominant condition could
be argued either way. Before proceeding either way, I would suggest looking
for any LEED Interpretations since the reviewer is likely to hold you to
previously published interpretations. I also believe mixed-use residential
projects are discussed in the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED 2009 (free
to registered projects and available in LEED online under the credit
resources tab).
Hope this helps!
Cam Fitzgerald
Energy Opportunities/a 7group company
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Maria Karpman
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 4:28 PM
To: 'Jim Dirkes'; 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Yet another perspective is that when high-rise residential buildings are
modeled with Systems 7/8 serving common spaces on each floor, even very
modest proposed designs, such as minimally code compliant PTACs, often show
hefty savings compared to the baseline because many of the prescribed
Appendix G settings and controls misfire (e.g. 0.4 cfm/sf minimum setpoints
for VAV reheat in G3.1.3.13). This is an issue for incentive programs that
use Appendix G protocol, because they end up with some pretty ridiculous
ECMs that on paper qualify for incentives.
Maria
From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:34 PM
To: Maria Karpman; 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
I vote with Maria and Demba J.
It is, however, very interesting to see all of the different perspectives!
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
<http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/> www.buildingperformanceteam.com
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653
From: Maria Karpman [mailto:maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:19 PM
To: 'Dónal O'Connor'; 'Rut Wattanasak'; Jim Dirkes; 'Building Sim Forum'
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
I second the approach described by Demba. Rut wrote “Since your dormitory
building contains some non-residential space types, you shouldn't use the
building type to determine your Baseline, ie it's no longer truly a
residential building type“. I disagree that presence of spaces such as
electrical/mechanical rooms, corridors, stairs, multi-purpose rooms, etc.
automatically means that this is not a residential building type. It is hard
to imagine a dormitory, hotel, motel, or multifamily without these, and
System 7/8 is hardly an appropriate baseline for such spaces (there would
have to be a system modeled for each floor).
You should also remember that only the area of conditioned spaces as defined
in 90.1 Section 3 is counted when determining baseline system type (G3.1.1),
so spaces like electrical/mechanical or storage may not have to be factored
in.
Thanks,
Maria
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dónal O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:05 PM
To: Rut Wattanasak; Jim Dirkes; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Hi all,
Thank you for your responses thus far.
I did a quick calculation of the areas. Total Residential Floor area is
approx. 75,000 sq. ft. and total Non-residential is approx. 50,000 sq. ft.
The Non-residential areas include the basement, main floor multi-purpose
rooms, lobbies, storage etc, and the common corridors, elec, janitor,
lounge/study areas on Floors 2-9.
So if we are in agreement that the Residential areas are to use either
System 1 or System 2, the next question is what are the Non-residential
areas classified as? From Table G3.1.1A it appears the number of floors take
precedence over the floor area, so as the Non-residential area extends over
10 floors, it should be classified as System 7 or System 8. Am I correct in
saying that the number of floors takes precedence over the floor area?
Thanks again for your help and guidance.
Cheers
Dónal
_____
From: rwattanasak at emoenergy.com
To: jim at buildingperformanceteam.com; oconnor_dj at hotmail.com;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:33:21 +0000
Per the exception noted by Mr Dirkes, I would model the Baseline building
based on Table G3.1.1A; except with the dorm rooms, modeled them with System
1 or 2.
Here is how I come to this decision:
* Since your dormitory building contains some non-residential space
types, you shouldn't use the building type to determine your Baseline, ie
it's no longer truly a residential building type
* Dorm rooms still fall under the residential space type, so use
residential Baseline systems (1 or 2) for those spaces
* "Other building and space types are considered nonresidential" This
statement allows the rest of the building to be modeled per standard
baseline (area, # of floors, energy source).
I see the same thought process applies to the mixed-use
(commercial/apartments) as well. With the rise of mixed-use commercial
building, I'm sure we'll be seeing this type of scenario more often. I
welcome any comments or suggestions.
Thanks,
Rut Wattanasak
LEED AP BD+C
_____
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Jim Dirkes
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:53 PM
To: John Aulbach; Dónal O'Connor; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
However
..
The notes in that table clarify as shown below. I think the notes indicate
that Donal’s “predominant” building type is residential. It sounds as
though there are some “non-predominant” types as well. Take a look at
G3.1.1’s Exceptions for a description of those.
>From 90.1-2007 Table G3.1.1A:
Notes:
Residential building types include dormitory, hotel, motel, and multifamily.
Residential space types include guest rooms, living quarters, private living
space, and sleeping quarters. Other
building and space types are considered nonresidential
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
<http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/> www.buildingperformanceteam.com
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of John Aulbach
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:47 PM
To: Dónal O'Connor; Building Sim Forum
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential
or Non-Residential?
Sir:
If the building is over 5 stories high believe that comes under
Non-Residential. Period.
John Aulbach, PE
From: Dónal O'Connor <oconnor_dj at hotmail.com>
To: Building Sim Forum <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Definition of a University Dormitory - Residential or
Non-Residential?
Dear Bldg Sim,
I'm looking for guidance on the definition of a University Dormitory
building that I'm modeling under LEED 2009, particularly referencing Table
G3.1.1A Baseline HVAC System Types. The building has 9 storeys above grade
with an underground basement, with a total floor area of approx. 125,000 sq.
ft.
The Basement is primarily crawlspace, electrical, mechanical, student
storage etc.
The Main Floor consists of a number of multi-purpose rooms, further storage
facilities for bicycles, recycling etc, with 1/3 of the main floor plan
dedicated to student residences.
The remaining floors, 2 - 9, are student residences with a number of break
out/study rooms/lounge areas on each floor.
Is the building classified as "Residential", or is it considered
"Nonresidential and More than 5 floors or > 150,000 sq. ft" due to the
basement and main floor spaces not being "Residential"? Will I have to model
the basement and the main floor separate from floors 2-9?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Dónal
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