[Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take? (UNCLASSIFIED)

[Dennis Knight]

Hi all,
I have been away from this conversation for a couple of days due to a death
in my family.
This conversation is great. I'm not sure we have ever really answered
Roberts original question though.
First - my apologies to Vikram for misquoting his statement about LEED
being cost centric in lieu of consumption focused a couple of days ago. He
is absolutely correct.

I agree with several of the thoughts in this recent thread. Stepping away
from modeling for a few thoughts.  Controls, or lets say operations, are
key. We have some very sophisticated control systems installed in the field
and some pretty slick dashboards and analytic software available to look at
building use, energy efficiency, indoor air quality, indoor comfort, human
behavior and user feedback networks. Some are going so far as to measure
the heart rate and respiration rate of a person in a cubicle and begin to
inform control decisions unknown to the occupant. This is all good stuff.

However, it's my experience that many of the larger control systems rely on
legacy code and programs that are often 20 to 30 years old (nothing
necessarily wrong with that if it works). But what I've seen is the
technology is well beyond most average facility managers training to fully
utilize, it's beyond most of the control technicians installing the systems
skill sets to set up properly (when I commission a control system I often
see where the technician has pulled in literally dozens of legacy, canned
sequences and then blocked or turned off much of the code trying to meet a
specified sequence of operations, gets confused and can't hardly tell what
sequence or logic is being used to control the system at the end of the
day). In most cases the owner does not get properly trained and the
valuable, somewhat self heeling features of a lot of control systems,
alerts and notifications never even get set up.

To bring that back to modeling, much of the modeling software we use for
design cannot model most control sequences we can dream up and most
engineers are still using modeling for load design only - they write a
sequence and expect a control contractor to be able to make it work
- energy models are only being applied when a client or a rating system
require it.

To tie back to John's last comment below - 100% agreement - our local
school district, 150 buildings, 8 million sf, $11 million per year in
utilities has a dedicated energy manager and a very sophisticated facility
management system. They are beginning to save upwards of 10 to 15 percent
just by analyzing utility interval data on their larger, more energy
intensive schools, finding and turning off as much as possible when not
needed. They are doing this without energy efficiency upgrades or control
upgrades. Then they are setting energy targets, recalibrating their control
systems setting up good alerts and notifications in the system to squeeze
everything out of what they have and finally writing a strategic energy
management plan for future construction and upgrades. They are fixing their
problems and turning things off first before buying more bells and
whistles. There is something to be said for simplicity.  It seems to be
working.

To Jame's point - existing buildings are at a disadvantage. With more
efficient lighting and more efficient HVAC equipment I'm seeing plug loads
and water heating use bigger pieces of the pie chart.



On Wednesday, January 23, 2013, Jim Dirkes wrote:

> John, you are right on target on all points!
> Keep in mind, though, that weather often has a greater impact on the
> existing buildings that need a lot of help.  They don't have the high
> performance envelopes and are not as likely to get a "makeover".
>
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> www.buildingperformanceteam.com
> Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
> 1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
> 616 450 8653
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;> [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of
> Eurek, John S NWO
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:18 AM
> To: Chuck Khuen; Joe Parker; 'Sami, Vikram'; 'Nick Caton'; 'Dennis
> Knight'; 'RobertWichert'
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take? (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> Energy Cost Comment-
> Working for the Army, we have many similar buildings in many different
> locations. We once had 2 buildings each in the same climate type, designed
> the same, but they differed by 5 leed points when it came to energy
> savings.  When we look into why, it turned out the only difference was
> utility rates.
>
> Weather Comment-
> What I have seem with a few high performance buildings is that the weather
> is becoming a very small factor.
>
> Primary office building with a lot of computer equipment, well insulated
> roof and walls with energy recovery for outside air and a low outside wall
> to square footage ratio (large cubes.)
>
> Controls Comment-
> I also think that controls are one of the most crucial keys to energy
> savings.  I have toured too many buildings when they were not occupied and
> the outside air dampers were 100% open.  I don't have a site, but I
> remember one article that said most buildings could save 30% in energy just
> by changing how it is controlled.  Less efficient equipment turned off is
> always more efficient that highly efficient equipment running when it
> doesn't need to.
>
>
> John Eurek PE, LEED AP
> Mechanical Engineer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Khuen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:03 PM
> To: Joe Parker; 'Sami, Vikram'; 'Nick Caton'; 'Dennis Knight';
> 'RobertWichert'
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?
>
> Weighing in from the ‘outside’, I agree very much with Joe on the future
> of building control systems being based on sensors but I believe sensors
> augmented with precision, highly localized weather data - forecasts which
> will drive predictive control, and current and recent condition data for
> sensor verification and external variables not being measured.
>
> Chuck
>
> _________________
> Chuck Khuen
> Co-Founder, EVP
> Weather Analytics
> weatheranalytics.com
> 781-856-5383
>
>
>
> From: Joe Parker <mailto:joeparker at esbits.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:00 AM
> To: 'Sami, Vikram' <mailto:Vikram.Sami at perkinswill.com>  ; 'Nick Caton'
> <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>  ; 'Dennis Knight' <mailto:
> dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com>  ; 'RobertWichert' <mailto:
> robert at wichert.org>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org ; EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?
>
>
> I have been following this discussion, not as an engineer or modeler, but
> as someone interested in the factors influencing the financial return on
> energy saving products.  My concern is in the same area as Vikram Sami
> expressed below but even a little deeper.  Vikram rightly notes that energy
> costs vary from location to location so a unit saved one place is not
> necessarily comparable to another location.  I would add two other factors
> that are very important in an energy efficiency decision - rate structure
> and time of energy saving. The bottom line is that an energy unit saved is
> based on both  the rate structure and the time of day that negative watt
> was earned.
>
>
>
> Rate structure factors such as demand response, peak demand, and off hours
> rates drive the value of reducing energy usage.  Some utilities offer very
> low rates at night.  If you have a building element - such as our Phase
> Change Material or Ice Energy's storage process - that can store energy
> during the low rate hours; then this energy is available to offset demand
> during a peak rate periods.
>
>
>
> If a product can reduce the energy usage during a high rate period in a
> high rate location



-- 
M. Dennis Knight, P.E.
Founder & CEO
*W*hole *B*uilding *S*ystems, LLC
P.O. Box 1845
Mt. Pleasant, SC 29465
Phone: 843-437-3647
Email: dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com
Website: www.wholebuildingsystems.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20130123/de9a4c47/attachment-0002.htm>