[Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take? (UNCLASSIFIED)

[RobertWichert]

Thanks to everyone, and this thread can go as long as we want it to.  
For me, I got three or four main points:

1.    To achieve anything, all systems must achieve the same result.  If 
one doesn't pull its weight, well, the goal is missed.  I had this 
resolved on a two hour telephone call with the lighting engineers on the 
project I was working on when I asked the original question.  This 
helped a lot and got the lighting systems pulling their share of the 
load.  Likewise windows, walls, roofs, and mechanical systems.

2.    My experience with the same project, using Energy Pro for 
modeling, shows that SEER 15 gives about 15% better building results 
than SEER 13, which is to be expected from the math, but unless all the 
systems achieve 15% better, well, you don't make that goal.  SEER 17 
does NOT give 30% better building results. More like 20% better and 
again, all the systems need to pull their weight.  In my climate zone 
(CA central valley), more SEER does not equate linearly to more 
performance.  Ever higher numbers give less marginal improvement.  I 
believe this is also to be expected given the fact that infinite SEER 
doesn't give infinite savings and all savings due to SEER require a load 
to be met.  I still don't have a good handle on this, but I'm getting 
closer.

3.    Controls are key.  I just implemented a pneumatic to DDC changeout 
along with some split systems for critical zones for the purpose of 
shutting down the systems at night and on weekends. Big savings there.  
But if the controls aren't right, well, you get the idea.

4.    Process loads can eat you up.  Shut them down!

5.    Utility rates rule the roost.  If you can use this to your 
advantage, it can be a big advantage.


Great conversation, folks.  Thanks for taking the time to think and reply...


Cheers from warming California - No frost this morning.  Are you jealous?



Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068







===============================================

On 1/23/2013 9:26 AM, Dennis Knight wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have been away from this conversation for a couple of days due to a 
> death in my family.
> This conversation is great. I'm not sure we have ever really answered 
> Roberts original question though.
> First - my apologies to Vikram for misquoting his statement about LEED 
> being cost centric in lieu of consumption focused a couple of days 
> ago. He is absolutely correct.
>
> I agree with several of the thoughts in this recent thread. Stepping 
> away from modeling for a few thoughts.  Controls, or lets say 
> operations, are key. We have some very sophisticated control systems 
> installed in the field and some pretty slick dashboards and analytic 
> software available to look at building use, energy efficiency, indoor 
> air quality, indoor comfort, human behavior and user feedback 
> networks. Some are going so far as to measure the heart rate and 
> respiration rate of a person in a cubicle and begin to inform control 
> decisions unknown to the occupant. This is all good stuff.
>
> However, it's my experience that many of the larger control systems 
> rely on legacy code and programs that are often 20 to 30 years old 
> (nothing necessarily wrong with that if it works). But what I've seen 
> is the technology is well beyond most average facility managers 
> training to fully utilize, it's beyond most of the control technicians 
> installing the systems skill sets to set up properly (when I 
> commission a control system I often see where the technician has 
> pulled in literally dozens of legacy, canned sequences and then 
> blocked or turned off much of the code trying to meet a specified 
> sequence of operations, gets confused and can't hardly tell what 
> sequence or logic is being used to control the system at the end of 
> the day). In most cases the owner does not get properly trained and 
> the valuable, somewhat self heeling features of a lot of control 
> systems, alerts and notifications never even get set up.
>
> To bring that back to modeling, much of the modeling software we use 
> for design cannot model most control sequences we can dream up and 
> most engineers are still using modeling for load design only - they 
> write a sequence and expect a control contractor to be able to make it 
> work - energy models are only being applied when a client or a rating 
> system require it.
>
> To tie back to John's last comment below - 100% agreement - our local 
> school district, 150 buildings, 8 million sf, $11 million per year in 
> utilities has a dedicated energy manager and a very sophisticated 
> facility management system. They are beginning to save upwards of 10 
> to 15 percent just by analyzing utility interval data on their larger, 
> more energy intensive schools, finding and turning off as much as 
> possible when not needed. They are doing this without energy 
> efficiency upgrades or control upgrades. Then they are setting energy 
> targets, recalibrating their control systems setting up good alerts 
> and notifications in the system to squeeze everything out of what they 
> have and finally writing a strategic energy management plan for future 
> construction and upgrades. They are fixing their problems and turning 
> things off first before buying more bells and whistles. There is 
> something to be said for simplicity.  It seems to be working.
>
> To Jame's point - existing buildings are at a disadvantage. With more 
> efficient lighting and more efficient HVAC equipment I'm seeing plug 
> loads and water heating use bigger pieces of the pie chart.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 23, 2013, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>
>     John, you are right on target on all points!
>     Keep in mind, though, that weather often has a greater impact on
>     the existing buildings that need a lot of help.  They don't have
>     the high performance envelopes and are not as likely to get a
>     "makeover".
>
>     James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
>     www.buildingperformanceteam.com
>     <http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com>
>     Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
>     1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
>     616 450 8653
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;>
>     [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;>] On
>     Behalf Of Eurek, John S NWO
>     Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:18 AM
>     To: Chuck Khuen; Joe Parker; 'Sami, Vikram'; 'Nick Caton'; 'Dennis
>     Knight'; 'RobertWichert'
>     Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <javascript:;>
>     Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take? (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
>     Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>     Caveats: NONE
>
>     Energy Cost Comment-
>     Working for the Army, we have many similar buildings in many
>     different locations. We once had 2 buildings each in the same
>     climate type, designed the same, but they differed by 5 leed
>     points when it came to energy savings.  When we look into why, it
>     turned out the only difference was utility rates.
>
>     Weather Comment-
>     What I have seem with a few high performance buildings is that the
>     weather is becoming a very small factor.
>
>     Primary office building with a lot of computer equipment, well
>     insulated roof and walls with energy recovery for outside air and
>     a low outside wall to square footage ratio (large cubes.)
>
>     Controls Comment-
>     I also think that controls are one of the most crucial keys to
>     energy savings.  I have toured too many buildings when they were
>     not occupied and the outside air dampers were 100% open.  I don't
>     have a site, but I remember one article that said most buildings
>     could save 30% in energy just by changing how it is controlled.
>      Less efficient equipment turned off is always more efficient that
>     highly efficient equipment running when it doesn't need to.
>
>
>     John Eurek PE, LEED AP
>     Mechanical Engineer
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>     [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
>     Khuen
>     Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:03 PM
>     To: Joe Parker; 'Sami, Vikram'; 'Nick Caton'; 'Dennis Knight';
>     'RobertWichert'
>     Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?
>
>     Weighing in from the ‘outside’, I agree very much with Joe on the
>     future of building control systems being based on sensors but I
>     believe sensors augmented with precision, highly localized weather
>     data - forecasts which will drive predictive control, and current
>     and recent condition data for sensor verification and external
>     variables not being measured.
>
>     Chuck
>
>     _________________
>     Chuck Khuen
>     Co-Founder, EVP
>     Weather Analytics
>     weatheranalytics.com <http://weatheranalytics.com>
>     781-856-5383
>
>
>
>     From: Joe Parker <mailto:joeparker at esbits.com>
>     Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:00 AM
>     To: 'Sami, Vikram' <mailto:Vikram.Sami at perkinswill.com>  ; 'Nick
>     Caton' <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>  ; 'Dennis Knight'
>     <mailto:dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com>  ; 'RobertWichert'
>     <mailto:robert at wichert.org>
>     Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org ; EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?
>
>
>     I have been following this discussion, not as an engineer or
>     modeler, but as someone interested in the factors influencing the
>     financial return on energy saving products.  My concern is in the
>     same area as Vikram Sami expressed below but even a little deeper.
>      Vikram rightly notes that energy costs vary from location to
>     location so a unit saved one place is not necessarily comparable
>     to another location.  I would add two other factors that are very
>     important in an energy efficiency decision - rate structure and
>     time of energy saving. The bottom line is that an energy unit
>     saved is based on both  the rate structure and the time of day
>     that negative watt was earned.
>
>
>
>     Rate structure factors such as demand response, peak demand, and
>     off hours rates drive the value of reducing energy usage.  Some
>     utilities offer very low rates at night.  If you have a building
>     element - such as our Phase Change Material or Ice Energy's
>     storage process - that can store energy during the low rate hours;
>     then this energy is available to offset demand during a peak rate
>     periods.
>
>
>
>     If a product can reduce the energy usage during a high rate period
>     in a high rate location
>
>
>
> -- 
> M. Dennis Knight, P.E.
> Founder & CEO
> *W*hole *B*uilding *S*ystems, LLC
> P.O. Box 1845
> Mt. Pleasant, SC 29465
> Phone: 843-437-3647
> Email: dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com 
> <mailto:dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com>
> Website: www.wholebuildingsystems.com 
> <http://www.wholebuildingsystems.com>
>
>

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