[Bldg-sim] SEER and Fan Energy

[RobertWichert]

Thank you very much, Vikram.  So far it looks great!

I'll let you know more as I find out more.


Best regards,


Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068







===============================================

On 1/30/2013 12:51 PM, Sami, Vikram wrote:
>
> If I understand the quandary you are referring to packaged systems 
> where the fan energy is included in the package. In eQUEST -- if you 
> select the EER rating (or SEER rating) in the wizard, then its my 
> understanding that the program does this automatically for you. 
> However, if you are using the 90.1 methodology, then you probably want 
> to go beyond the wizard. I developed the attached spreadsheet to parse 
> out the energy by fan and cooling -- feel free to use it. I would 
> appreciate feedback from anyone willing to check my math and methodology.
>
> **
>
> *Vikram Sami*, LEED AP BD+C
>
> Sustainable Design Analyst
>
> 1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309
>
> t: 404-443-7462    f: 404.892.5823 e: vikram.sami at perkinswill.com 
> www.perkinswill.com <http://www.perkinswill.com/>
>
> *Perkins+Will.*Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of RobertWichert
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:15 PM
> To: Haynes, Glenn
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] SEER and Fan Energy
>
> That makes sense, Glenn.  So it's a manual adjustment to the EIR.  In 
> Energy Pro, which I use a lot, that can be done by using the 
> "Compressor/Condenser Power" option and then adding the fan power in 
> separately, but only for systems over five tons.  Smaller systems are 
> stuck with SEER.
>
> I think the problem I'm facing is that Energy Pro uses SEER for small 
> systems, not EER/EIR.
>
> Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
>
> +1 916 966 9060
>
> FAX +1 916 966 9068
>
> ===============================================
>
> On 1/30/2013 11:31 AM, Haynes, Glenn wrote:
>
> > Robert,
>
> >
>
> > First you must estimate the EIR from the SEER to input unit 
> efficiency in DOE2.  The conversion depends on the system type and 
> other things, but for starters you can multiply SEER by something like 
> 0.89 to estimate EER (then EIR = 3.413/EER, which I am sure you 
> already know) if you don't have something better.
>
> >
>
> > When I do a residential model I take the fan power (at full speed) 
> out of the EIR and use the adjusted EIR for the modeled AC unit.  Then 
> I add the fan power to the input stream through SUPPLY-KW/FLOW.  That 
> way you get a truer unit power.
>
> >
>
> > Best regards,
>
> > for KEMA USA, Inc.
>
> >
>
> > Glenn C. Haynes, PE
>
> > Senior Engineering Consultant
>
> > DNV KEMA Energy & Sustainability
>
> >
>
> > Tel: (615) 783-2187
>
> > 3200 West End Avenue, Suite 500
>
> > Nashville, TN 37203
>
> > USA
>
> > glenn.haynes at kema.com <mailto:glenn.haynes at kema.com>
>
> > Please visit our website: www.dnvkema.com <http://www.dnvkema.com>
>
> >
>
> > This message may contain confidential or private information.  If 
> you are not the addressee, please return the message to its sender and 
> delete it from your files.  Please consider the environment before 
> printing this email.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of RobertWichert
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:48 AM
>
> > To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> > Subject: [Bldg-sim] SEER and Fan Energy
>
> >
>
> > This forum has discussed fan energy before, and since that time I have
>
> > grappled with the concept of fan power, specifically how to avoid double
>
> > counting fan power since even indoor fans are included in SEER ratings.
>
> >
>
> > I suppose that I should start by confirming that indoor supply and
>
> > return fans are included in SEER ratings.  I have read the DOE 49 CFR
>
> > Pt. 430, Subpt. B, App. M UNIFORM TEST METHOD FOR MEASURING THE ENERGY
>
> > CONSUMPTION OF CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONERS AND HEAT PUMPS.  It seems clear
>
> > in that method that indoor fans are included in the power and energy
>
> > calculations.  If not, please let me know what I am missing.
>
> >
>
> > OK, if indoor supply and return fans are included in the SEER rating,
>
> > then why would we put additional fan energy into our calculations?  Does
>
> > EQuest, EnergyPro, E+, and all the rest do some math to subtract this
>
> > out, and if so, how is that done?
>
> >
>
> > Sorry for the basic question, but I have thought about this a lot and
>
> > haven't reached a comfortable solution.  At one point I thought that the
>
> > SEER calculation did not account for indoor fans, but I now find that to
>
> > be wrong.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Your thoughts are appreciated.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
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