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Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Economizer/Heat recovery operation

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Economizer/Heat recovery operation
From: "Michael J. Witte" <mjwitte@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:46:21 -0500
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> 2a.Yes, this is the case. Heating and cooling are set on the same
> nodes, but I was expecting this to happen. One set-point to be active
> and the other to be overwritten at each timestep (meaning cooling OR
> heating). Isn't this the case, or are the setpoints just battling each
> other? 

No.  All set point managers are executed at the beginning of each iteration 
loop, and they are executed in the same order by type of set point manager.  In 
this case, all SET POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE HEATING are executed before SET 
POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE COOLING.  The setpoints calculated by the SINGLE ZONE 
HEATING set point managers are all being overwritten by the SINGLE ZONE COOLING 
setpoint managers when these share the same setpoint node.  I ran a test with 
you input file, deleting the SINGLE ZONE HEATING set point managers, and the 
result did not change.

Note that when there is no cooling load required by the zone, SET POINT 
MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE COOLING uses the "maximum supply air temperature" value as 
the set point.  Likewise, SET POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE HEATING, uses the 
minimum supply air temperature when there is no heating load.  


Mike


On 16 May 2006 at 7:53, alexandrevarela2000 wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> Thank your very much for your reply.
> 
> 1. Thanks. I will be waiting for this one, and play around with the
> limits, for the time being.
> 
> 2a.Yes, this is the case. Heating and cooling are set on the same
> nodes, but I was expecting this to happen. One set-point to be active
> and the other to be overwritten at each timestep (meaning cooling OR
> heating). Isn't this the case, or are the setpoints just battling each
> other? 
> 
> 2b. My fan doesn´t produce any heat (Delta Pressure=0, Motor in
> airstream fraction = 0), that's why I didn't use SET POINT
> MANAGER:MIXED AIR. The extra heating I was talking about is actually
> supplied by the heating coil, that's why I thought it to be a bit
> strange. And why would the zone temperature be set to 23ºC when it
> could just be lower, without being out of thermostat range, and not
> using any additional energy?
> 
> Example:
> I was doing it this way before "removing" fan heat. It's good to know
> I got it right. Thanks.
> 
> Thank you very much for the "never ending" support and efforts. Best
> regards,
> Alexandre
> 
> 
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Michael J. Witte"
> <mjwitte@...> wrote:
> >
> > 1. Currently, if the economizer is available, the heat exchanger
> will be 
> > bypassed, even if the economizer set point modulation results in
> minimum 
> > outside air flow.  I will post a suggestion to allow this option,
> but that does 
> > not help you now.  I cannot think of any way to activate the heat
> exchanger 
> > except to use upper and lower temperature and enthalpy limits.
> > 
> > 2.  There are two problems with the temperature controls.  
> > 
> > 2a.  Both SET POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE COOLING and SET POINT
> MANAGER:SINGLE 
> > ZONE HEATING are placing setpoints on the same 3 nodes.  There is a
> single 
> > temperature setpoint on each node.  Only one of these setpoint
> managers is 
> > active, the other one is being overwritten.  
> > 
> > 2b.  The second problem is that the fan heat is added after the
> coils.  The set 
> > point managers are setting supply air temperatures at the coils, and
> the fan 
> > will always raise the temperature.  To avoid this a SET POINT
> MANAGER:MIXED AIR 
> > must be used to subtract the fan delta temperature from the
> setpoint.  In your 
> > system, you must do this twice, one for the heating coil setpoint
> and once for 
> > the cooling coil setpoint.  This also means you need a place to
> store the base 
> > suppy air setpoints before adjusting them for fan heat.
> > 
> > Example:
> > SET POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE COOLING, Set point node = AHU_FC_P1
> Air Loop 
> > Outlet
> > SET POINT MANAGER:MIXED AIR (for cooling), reference set point node
> name = 
> > AHU_FC_P1 Air Loop Outlet
> > Set point Nodes = AHU_FC_P1 Cooling Coil Outlet and AHU_FC_P1 Mixed
> Air Outlet
> > 
> > SET POINT MANAGER:SINGLE ZONE HEATING, Set point node = AHU_FC_P1
> Zone Equip 
> > Inlet
> > SET POINT MANAGER:MIXED AIR (for cooling), reference set point node
> name = 
> > AHU_FC_P1 Zone Equip Inlet
> > Set point Node = AHU_FC_P1 Heating Coil Outlet
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > On 11 May 2006 at 19:15, alexandrevarela2000 wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear all,
> > > 
> > > I'm trying to simulate a constant flow system with generic heat
> > > exchanger and an air side economizer. As I get it from "Input-Output
> > > reference" pg. 1023 (PDF pg. 1060), when all other user definable
> > > limits are satisfied, the economizer has the following control:
> > > 
> > > Cond.1)"Outside Air (OA) Temperature" >= "Mixed Air (MA) temp. set
> > > point" --> Maximum outside air flow
> > > 
> > > Cond.2)"OA Temperature" < "MA temp. set point" --> Modulated outside
> > > air flow in order to meet "MA temp. set point".
> > > 
> > > Regarding heat recovery/economizer operation. If I choose ECONOMIZER
> > > or BYPASS in CONTROLLER:OUTSIDE AIR without any other limit, heat
> > > recovery will always be bypassed.
> > > 
> > > My system. After satisfying all the other limits, I need my economizer
> > > to always modulate OA flow, from minimum to maximum, in order to meet
> > > "MA temp. set point". That is, independently of OA Temp./MA Temp.
> > > relationship. The economizer should "know" that it was OFF, once the
> > > OA flow was set to a minimum, allowing heat recovery to operate.
> > > 
> > > Is there any way of doing this? Has I see it, we can play around with
> > > "all the other limits" but not with Cond.1 and Cond.2 . Is this right?
> > > 
> > > I know I could try to work with the weather file, and try controlling
> > > this operation with TEMPERATURE LIMIT and TEMPERATURE LOWER LIMIT.
> > > That could be an option, but it would be great have E+ controlling
> > > this automatically, and on the other hand this model is to be used in
> > > very different climates.
> > > 
> > > By the way, this model is always in cooling mode (very high internal
> > > loads) and I'm controlling zone temperature in deadband. Deadband
> > > control is also behaving a bit strange. My system insists on keeping
> > > the zone's cooling set point temperature when it could be just keeping
> > > the zone inside the deadband range. This means that, at times, MA
> > > temp. is suitable to keep the zone in the deadband range and is also
> > > in the acceptable supply air temperature range, but the system insists
> > > on heating the air a bit to keep the zone's cooling set point
> > > temperature. To make it a bit clearer:
> > > 
> > > Zone deadband thermostat: 19-23ºC
> > > Mixed air temperature: 19.9ºC
> > > Supply air temperature range:16-28ºC
> > > Heating Coil Outlet temperature: 22.6ºC
> > > Resulting zone temperature: 23ºC (when it could be kept at around
> > > without the additional heating 21ºC)
> > > 
> > > Sorry for the long and maybe not so clear problem explanation. Thank
> > > you very much for all your help. Best regards,
> > > Alexandre
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
> > > http://www.energyplus.gov
> > > 
> > > The group web site is:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
> > > 
> > > Attachments are not allowed -- please post any files to the
> appropriate folder
> > > in the Files area of the Support Web Site.
> > > 
> > > EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable.  Open EPlusMainMenu.idf
> and press the
> > > "search" button.
> > >  
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ========================================================
> > Michael J. Witte, GARD Analytics, Inc.
> > EnergyPlus Testing and Support      
> > EnergyPlus-Support@...
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
> http://www.energyplus.gov
> 
> The group web site is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
> 
> Attachments are not allowed -- please post any files to the appropriate folder
> in the Files area of the Support Web Site.
> 
> EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable.  Open EPlusMainMenu.idf and press the
> "search" button.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


========================================================
Michael J. Witte, GARD Analytics, Inc.
EnergyPlus Testing and Support      
EnergyPlus-Support@xxxxxxxx





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References:
- Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Economizer/Heat recovery operation
  - From: Michael J. Witte
- [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Economizer/Heat recovery operation
  - From: alexandrevarela2000

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