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[EnergyPlus_Support] Fwd: Re: Cooling set-point not fully achieved

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Fwd: Re: Cooling set-point not fully achieved
From: "anarui.oliveira" <anarui.oliveira@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:59:51 -0000
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Thank you for the suggestions. For now I used a PA approach, because 
I had to deliver results for yesterday, but I will try your 
suggestions when I have a chance, to check the behaviour of the 
simulation.

I only tried 4 and 6 steps in hour (15 and 10 min), always using 1 
as minimum step in convergence limits.

Regards,
Ana.

--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Richard Raustad 
<RRaustad@...> wrote:
>
> Ana, change the frequency of the report variables to "detailed". 
You 
> will notice that the loss of set point control occurs when the 
program 
> is simulating at a reduced time step (shorter than 15 minutes). 
And it 
> doesn't happen for the entire duration of the shortened time step 
> period. This is exactly the problem we have been seeing. When any 
zone 
> temperature changes by more than 0.03C, the simulation tries again 
at a 
> shorter time step (so some load changed quickly to make the zone 
> temperature change quickly). When this occurs, the prediction of 
zone 
> loads are somewhat less accurate. We are working on this and hope 
to 
> have a resolution soon. I haven't looked at your input closely 
enough to 
> know why this only happens in 1 zone. Is it possible for you 
to "smooth" 
> out the people, equipment and lighting loads (to eliminate step 
> functions in load) in zone 43515? For instance, it takes several 
minutes 
> for occupancy to change in a zone, and with diversity of 
equipment, 
> those loads could also be assumed to change over several minutes. 
You 
> could change to using compact schedules to provide a "smoother" 
> transition from 1 minute to the next (or from 1 15-min period to 
the 
> next), maybe that would help. I still think your results are not 
> impacted all that much, but I also know that when someone sees the 
loss 
> of set point, the results come into question.
> 
> Here's an example of smoothing out a schedule, I'm not saying this 
will 
> work, but if you are really determined to eliminate this problem, 
it's 
> worth a try. You have schedules for occupancy, equipment, 
lighting, 
> infiltration, etc. Even if your schedules are "fixed" by some 
standard, 
> smoothing them out quickly (in 15 minute intervals) , while still 
> conform to the intent of the schedule.
> 
> Also, what happened when you tried to simulate at 1 hour time 
steps?
> 
> Your schedule:
> DAYSCHEDULE,
>     School_People_WeekDay,   !- Name
>     Fraction,                !- ScheduleType
>     0,                       !- Hour 1
>     0,                       !- Hour 2
>     0,                       !- Hour 3
>     0,                       !- Hour 4
>     0,                       !- Hour 5
>     0,                       !- Hour 6
>     0,                       !- Hour 7
>     0,                       !- Hour 8
>     0.05,                    !- Hour 9
>     0.9,                     !- Hour 10
>     1,                       !- Hour 11
>     1,                       !- Hour 12
>     1,                       !- Hour 13
>     0.9,                     !- Hour 14
>     0.9,                     !- Hour 15
>     1,                       !- Hour 16
>     1,                       !- Hour 17
>     1,                       !- Hour 18
>     0.8,                     !- Hour 19
>     0.1,                     !- Hour 20
>     0,                       !- Hour 21
>     0,                       !- Hour 22
>     0,                       !- Hour 23
>     0;                       !- Hour 24
> 
> My suggestion:
> SCHEDULE:COMPACT,
>     School_People_Yearly,    !- Name
>     Fraction,                !- ScheduleType
>     Through: 31 Dec,         !- Complex Field #1
>     For: Weekdays SummerDesignDay,  !- Complex Field #2
>     Until: 09:00,            !- Complex Field #3
>     0,                       !- Complex Field #4
>     Until: 09:15,            !- Complex Field #5
>     0.05,                    !- Complex Field #6
>     Until: 09:30,            !- Complex Field #7
>     0.25,                     !- Complex Field #8
>     Until: 09:45,            !- Complex Field #9
>     0.75,                       !- Complex Field #10
>     Until: 10:00,            !- Complex Field #11
>     0.8,                    !- Complex Field #12
>     Until: 10:15,            !- Complex Field #13
>     0.9,                       !- Complex Field #14
>     Until: 14:00,            !- Complex Field #15
>     1,                     !- Complex Field #16
>     Until: 14:15,            !- Complex Field #17
>     0.95,                    !- Complex Field #18
>     Until: 16:00,            !- Complex Field #19
>     0.9,                       !- Complex Field #20
>     Until: 16:15,            !- Complex Field #13
>     0.95,                       !- Complex Field #14
>     Until: 19:00,            !- Complex Field #15
>     1,                     !- Complex Field #16
>     Until: 19:15,            !- Complex Field #17
>     0.9,                    !- Complex Field #18
>     Until: 19:30,            !- Complex Field #19
>     0.7,                       !- Complex Field #20
>     Until: 19:45,            !- Complex Field #15
>     0.5,                     !- Complex Field #16
>     Until: 20:00,            !- Complex Field #17
>     0.3,                    !- Complex Field #18
>     Until: 21:00,            !- Complex Field #19
>     0.1,                       !- Complex Field #20
>     Until: 24:00,            !- Complex Field #19
>     0.0,                       !- Complex Field #20
>     For: Weekends,           !- Complex Field #21
>     Until: 24:00,            !- Complex Field #22
>     0,                       !- Complex Field #23
>     For: Holidays,           !- Complex Field #24
>     Until: 24:00,            !- Complex Field #25
>     0,                       !- Complex Field #26
>     For: WinterDesignDay AllOtherDays,  !- Complex Field #27
>     Until: 24:00,            !- Complex Field #28
>     0;                       !- Complex Field #29
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Raustad wrote:
> >
> > Well, I would rather see a graph, but from what you describe, 
yes it does.
> >
> > If you wish, email a graph in the spreadsheet (save it as xls) 
to:
> > rraustad@... <mailto:rraustad%40fsec.ucf.edu>
> >
> > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > >
> > > Differences go up to 1ºC. Does it fit the behaviour of the 
problem
> > > you describe?
> > >
> > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>, Richard Raustad
> > > <RRaustad@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have looked at this control issue before. I don't think 
it's the
> > > > mixing objects or other zone loads. And your offset from the 
set
> > > point
> > > > should be pretty small. Not to worry, the overall annual 
energy use
> > > > should be pretty close. Beside, if you run this building 
using a
> > > > different building simulation tool, your likely to get a 
different
> > > > answer. And I believe the difference in these answers will be
> > > greater
> > > > than the difference in annual energy use due to the set point
> > > offset. If
> > > > it happens all the time, adjust your set point so 
the "average"
> > > zone
> > > > temperature is near your target temperature.
> > > >
> > > > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Could the mixing objects or anything like that contribute 
to this
> > > > > problem? Or some definitions such as humidity ratios or the
> > > like?...
> > > > > Getting worried here... the aim was exactly to predict the 
energy
> > > > > consumption of a building throughout a year (for official, 
legal
> > > > > purposes)...
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%
40yahoogroups.com>, "anarui.oliveira"
> > > > > <anarui.oliveira@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Is this problem equally likely to happen if I use a 
Purchased Air
> > > > > approach?
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>, Richard 
Raustad
> > > > > <RRaustad@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could try increasing the time step in hour. I have 
no other
> > > > > > suggestions. This is a known issue and we are working to
> > > correct it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That field is already set to 1, and time step in hours 
is set
> > > to
> > > > > 4.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>, Richard 
Raustad
> > > > > > > <RRaustad@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What you describe is not a capacity issue, it is 
related to
> > > the
> > > > > > > > prediction of loads. If you add the report variable
> > > > > for "Zone/Sys
> > > > > > > > Sensible Load Predicted" and set the report variable
> > > frequency
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > detailed, you will see why this is happening. Try 
reducing
> > > the
> > > > > > > Minimum
> > > > > > > > System Time Step in the System Convergence Limits 
object.
> > > You
> > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > > will not eliminate the problem, but it should get 
better.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What if, in a similar (heating) case, water flow 
doesn't
> > > > > reach the
> > > > > > > > > maximum when the problem occurs, and increasing 
the air
> > > flow
> > > > > > > causes
> > > > > > > > > further departure from temperature setpoint?...
(Less than
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > 1.5
> > > > > > > > > times the auto-sized air flow also leads to poorer
> > > setpoint
> > > > > > > > > tracking); reported air flow is always equal to the
> > > constant
> > > > > > > volume
> > > > > > > > > fan flow, and ouside air flow rate is (and must 
be) user
> > > > > > > specified.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > Ana.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>, 
Richard
> > > Raustad
> > > > > > > > > <RRaustad@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then try again to manually size the coil in the 
problem
> > > > > zone to
> > > > > > > > > twice
> > > > > > > > > > the size reported in the eio file. Also increase 
the air
> > > > > flow
> > > > > > > rate
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > that fan coil unit and fan to twice the autosized
> > > value. If
> > > > > > > htis is
> > > > > > > > > > happening in more than 1 zone, then just pick 1 
for now
> > > to
> > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > this out.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then tell me what happens to the maximum zone
> > > temperature.
> > > > > Did
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > maximum zone temperature go down? Also tell me 
if the
> > > water
> > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > rate is
> > > > > > > > > > at a maximum when the zone temperature exceeds 
the set
> > > > > point.
> > > > > > > You
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > report "System Node VolFlowRate" for the coil 
water
> > > inlet
> > > > > node
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > fan
> > > > > > > > > > coil air inlet node to easily match volumetric 
flow rate
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > inputs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This just sounds like a sizing issue and should 
be
> > > easily
> > > > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Apparently, yes, but I set it to autosize (and 
I
> > > think I
> > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > a trial with a larger, user-defined, water flow
> > > rate)...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>, 
Richard
> > > > > Raustad
> > > > > > > > > > > <RRaustad@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have not looked at your input file, can 
you tell
> > > me
> > > > > if the
> > > > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > > > > mass
> > > > > > > > > > > > flow rate through the fan coil is at a 
maximum when
> > > the
> > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > > > point is not met?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > anarui.oliveira wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please forgive me for insisting, but I DO 
have
> > > some
> > > > > > > urgency on
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thanks for any help,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ana.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support%
> > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "anarui.oliveira"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <anarui.oliveira@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm uploading a new file
> > > (Zone36598_cFancoil_exp),
> > > > > > > hoping
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can help me figure out why the cooling 
setpoints
> > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > > > achieved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for all times when the controls are 
active
> > > (namely
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Zone
> > > > > > > > > > > 36598).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > model consists of Fancoil units created 
with
> > > Compact
> > > > > > > HVAC,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > edited in the expanded file.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I tried several user-defined and sizing
> > > options, but
> > > > > > > > > couldn't
> > > > > > > > > > > solve
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > temperature peaks above 25ºC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ana Rui.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Richard A. Raustad
> > > > > > > > > > > > Senior Research Engineer
> > > > > > > > > > > > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > > > > > > > > > > > University of Central Florida
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
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> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > UCF - From Promise to Prominence: 
Celebrating 40
> > > Years
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Richard A. Raustad
> > > > > > > > > > Senior Research Engineer
> > > > > > > > > > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > > > > > > > > > University of Central Florida
> > > > > > > > > > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > > > > > > > > > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > > > > > > > > > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > > > > > > > > > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> > > > > > > > > > Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
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> > > > > > > > Senior Research Engineer
> > > > > > > > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > > > > > > > University of Central Florida
> > > > > > > > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > > > > > > > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > > > > > > > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > > > > > > > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> > > > > > > > Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>
> > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>
> > > > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu> 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>>
> > > > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu> 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>
> > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu> 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>>>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 
Years
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Richard A. Raustad
> > > > > > Senior Research Engineer
> > > > > > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > > > > > University of Central Florida
> > > > > > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > > > > > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > > > > > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > > > > > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> > > > > > Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>
> > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>
> > > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu> 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- End forwarded message ---
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard A. Raustad
> > > > Senior Research Engineer
> > > > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > > > University of Central Florida
> > > > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > > > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > > > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > > > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> > > > Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu> <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
> > <http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>>
> > > >
> > > > UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -- 
> > Richard A. Raustad
> > Senior Research Engineer
> > Florida Solar Energy Center
> > University of Central Florida
> > 1679 Clearlake Road
> > Cocoa, FL 32922-5703
> > Phone: (321) 638-1454
> > Fax: (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> > Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu 
<http://www.fsec.ucf.edu>
> >
> > UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years
> >
> >  
> 
> -- 
> Richard A. Raustad
> Senior Research Engineer
> Florida Solar Energy Center
> University of Central Florida
> 1679 Clearlake Road
> Cocoa, FL  32922-5703
> Phone:   (321) 638-1454
> Fax:     (321) 638-1439 or 1010
> Visit our web site at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu
> 
> UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years
>




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