Mario,
I am simulating the interior cavity of the DSF as a thermal zone. Though, i still need to define the interior and exterior convective coefficients for that zone. The MoWiTT (for exterior) seems adequate for my model, but the interior algorithms do not. The behaviour of a DSF depends on complicated heat transfer mechanisms, mass transfer mechanisms and optical-solar proprieties. A mathematical aproach that takes all these and some more into account and the dependence between them all is no easy task. The heat transfer convective coeficients are highly dependable on these termodynamic principles, and change radicaly in a DSF that has natural ventilation (wind effects included). The coefficients algorithms presented in E+ are not meant to simulate this kind of complex behaviour, thus my need to define them as best as possible. In fact, and as i said before, my goal now is exactly to use this costum algorithm instead of the ones presented in E+, in order to evaluate how accuratly can the program simulate these kinds of building elements (putting against experimental data acquired in a test cell).
Pedro.
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: mneves32@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:27:02 +0000
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
Pedro,
What if instead of a gap between panes, you had a thermal zone?
MN
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mario,
>
> yes, i have seen that algorithm. it is based on ISO 15099, and it applies to a narrow, sealed non ventilated cavity. My model has natural ventilation and has a considerable gap in between panes. My objective is to see how E+ behaves using a especific algorithm formulated for double skin facades with natural ventilation.
>
> Pedro.
>
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> From: mneves32@...
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:58:20 +0000
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> Pedro,
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> Have you sean the TombWall coeficients?
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>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > Mario,
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> >
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> > It wouldnt. I'm doing a research work on natural ventilated double skin facades, and the inside convective coefficients depends on a handfull of paramenters that need to be calculated for each time step. I must apply a not so simple algorithm, rather than using constant values, or even any of the available algorithms in E+.
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> >
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> > Pedro
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> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > From: mneves32@
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> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 09:08:25 +0000
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> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > Hello Pedro,
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> > How about using this object:
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> > IDF,SurfaceProperty:ConvectionCoefficients:MultipleSurface,AllExteriorWalls,Outside,Value,25*,,Inside,Simple,7.69*,;
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> > Won´t it get the job done?
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> > *- values acording to the ITE-50 [W/m2.K]
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> > MN
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> >
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> > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > > Mario,
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> > > I have. But the issue here is that i want to apply different coefficients, other than the ones available in E+. As far as i know, DB will not provide me such thing. I've read through the EMS, and it specifically says that it is possible to define and apply custom made algorithms for the convective coefficients, wich is exactly what i need.
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> > > Pedro.
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> > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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> > > From: mneves32@
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> >
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> > > Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:24:54 +0000
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> >
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> > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > Hello Pedro,
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> > > Have you sean how Designbuilder coupes with this problem?
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> > > If you export the IDF you will see that each surface hase it´s own "pair" of superficial coeficients.
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> > > MN
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> > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > > > I would have to say that is good news. Could I get any hint on where to start looking for information on what exactly is this EMS feature, what aditional tools (if any) i need to have and how to start learning how to use it? I'm rather in the blank about this, could use some guidance on where to look, thank you for your help!!
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> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> > > > From: brent.griffith@
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> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:10:20 -0600
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> > >
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> > > > Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > > Work is underway to overhaul the
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> > > > convection coefficient algorithms and there will be many more options available
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> > > > in the next version.
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> > > > Currently, the EMS
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> > > > feature includes actuators for surface convection coefficients. It is a bit of
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> > > > an advanced feature, and could get pretty cumbersome for large models, but it is
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> > > > possible to implement any algorithm you want using EnergyPlus Runtime Language.
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> > > > From:
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> > > > EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pedro Peixeiro
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> > >
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> > > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:05
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> > > > AM
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> > > > To:
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> > > > energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> > >
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> > > > Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support]
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> > > > Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > > yes. for the SurfaceConvectionAlgorithm:Inside
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> > > > and SurfaceConvectionAlgorithm:Outside objects.
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> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> > >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > From: mneves32@
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> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:54:36 +0000
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> > >
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> > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > > sUPERFICIAIS?
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> > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
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> > >
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> > > > "pedro_peixeiro" <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > > > > Hello everyone.
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> > > > > Is there any way to include in a simulation other algorithms for the
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> > > > convective heat transfer coeffients? thanks.
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> > > > > Pedro
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> > > > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with
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> > >
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> > > > Hotmail. Get busy.
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> > > > __________________________________________________________
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> > > > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
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> > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
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> > > __________________________________________________________
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> > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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> >
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> > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
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> > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
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> > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
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> __________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>
What if instead of a gap between panes, you had a thermal zone?
MN
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mario,
>
> yes, i have seen that algorithm. it is based on ISO 15099, and it applies to a narrow, sealed non ventilated cavity. My model has natural ventilation and has a considerable gap in between panes. My objective is to see how E+ behaves using a especific algorithm formulated for double skin facades with natural ventilation.
>
> Pedro.
>
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> From: mneves32@...
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:58:20 +0000
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> Pedro,
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> Have you sean the TombWall coeficients?
>
>
>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Mario,
>
> >
>
> > It wouldnt. I'm doing a research work on natural ventilated double skin facades, and the inside convective coefficients depends on a handfull of paramenters that need to be calculated for each time step. I must apply a not so simple algorithm, rather than using constant values, or even any of the available algorithms in E+.
>
> >
>
> > Pedro
>
> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > From: mneves32@
>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 09:08:25 +0000
>
> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > Hello Pedro,
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> > How about using this object:
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> > IDF,SurfaceProperty:ConvectionCoefficients:MultipleSurface,AllExteriorWalls,Outside,Value,25*,,Inside,Simple,7.69*,;
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> >
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> > Won´t it get the job done?
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> > *- values acording to the ITE-50 [W/m2.K]
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> >
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> > MN
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
> > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> >
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> > >
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> > > Mario,
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > I have. But the issue here is that i want to apply different coefficients, other than the ones available in E+. As far as i know, DB will not provide me such thing. I've read through the EMS, and it specifically says that it is possible to define and apply custom made algorithms for the convective coefficients, wich is exactly what i need.
>
> >
>
> > >
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> >
>
> > > Pedro.
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >
>
> > > From: mneves32@
>
> >
>
> > > Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:24:54 +0000
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > Hello Pedro,
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> > > Have you sean how Designbuilder coupes with this problem?
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> > > If you export the IDF you will see that each surface hase it´s own "pair" of superficial coeficients.
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> > > MN
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> > >
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> >
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> > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pedro Peixeiro <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > > > I would have to say that is good news. Could I get any hint on where to start looking for information on what exactly is this EMS feature, what aditional tools (if any) i need to have and how to start learning how to use it? I'm rather in the blank about this, could use some guidance on where to look, thank you for your help!!
>
> >
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> > > > Pedro
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > From: brent.griffith@
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:10:20 -0600
>
> >
>
> > >
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> >
>
> > > > Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > > Work is underway to overhaul the
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> > > > convection coefficient algorithms and there will be many more options available
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> > > > in the next version.
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> > > > Currently, the EMS
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> > > > feature includes actuators for surface convection coefficients. It is a bit of
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> > > > an advanced feature, and could get pretty cumbersome for large models, but it is
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> > > > possible to implement any algorithm you want using EnergyPlus Runtime Language.
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> > > > From:
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> > > > EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pedro Peixeiro
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:05
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> > >
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> > > > AM
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> > >
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> > > > To:
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> > > > energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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> > >
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> > > >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support]
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> > > > yes. for the SurfaceConvectionAlgorithm:Inside
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> > > > and SurfaceConvectionAlgorithm:Outside objects.
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> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > From: mneves32@
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> >
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> > >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:54:36 +0000
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Surface Convection Algorithms
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> >
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> > > > sUPERFICIAIS?
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> > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
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> > > > "pedro_peixeiro" <pedro_peixeiro@> wrote:
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> > > > > Hello everyone.
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> > > > > Is there any way to include in a simulation other algorithms for the
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> > > > convective heat transfer coeffients? thanks.
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> > > > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with
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> > > > Hotmail. Get busy.
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> > > > __________________________________________________________
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> > > > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
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> > >
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> > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
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> > > __________________________________________________________
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> > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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> >
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> > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
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> > __________________________________________________________
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> > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
>
> > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
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> __________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.
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