[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Weird results with a very simple model


Dear Jim,

Speaking in terms of DOE-2, it's also possible to get all the information that you mentioned at the hourly level, plus other information like the the solar radiation reflected from the ground, the direct radiation on the surface before and after shading, etc.  I don't know other programs like TRNSYS or IES well enough to say definitively, but I would bet they also can output equivalent timestep data.  As for component loads, what's in EnergyPlus is modeled after the technique used in DOE-2.

Joe
Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>yjhuang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com";>http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"

On 3/3/2014 2:09 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>  
Dear Joe,

> I?m not ?wizard class? on other software, but am unaware that any other platform can report, for example, incident solar energy on a surface, load components and other details at each timestep.  In the EnergyPlus world, these can be reported individually at each timestep ? I find it invaluable for troubleshooting.  You?re not inferring a cause, you?re looking at the detailed data.

> Hopefully, that explains what I am thinking.  Tell me what you are thinking?..

>  

> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> <http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/>> www.buildingperformanceteam.com
> Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
> 1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
> 616 450 8653

>  

> From: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joe Huang
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 4:43 PM
> To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Weird results with a very simple model

>  

>  

> Athinodoros,
> 
> How are you eliminating all solar radiation?  Have you checked the diffuse sky radiation, and reflected radiation from the ground?
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I'm curious why you said that EnergyPlus is "...perhaps the only energy analysis software that can tell you exactly why the results are occurring"?  It's all a matter of how familiar you are to any program.
> 
> Joe

> Joe Huang<o></o>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.<o></o>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D<o></o>
> Moraga CA 94556<o></o>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yjhuang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>yjhuang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</a><o></o>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com";>http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<o></o>
> (o) (925)388-0265<o></o>
> (c) (510)928-2683<o></o>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"<o></o>> 
> On 3/2/2014 2:20 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:

>  

> Athinodoros,

> You are using perhaps the only energy analysis software that can tell you exactly why the results are occurring.  IN order for it to ?tell? you, however, you must become very familiar with the Output:Variable objects.  Read up on these!  Practice using them!

> p.s., It is also very helpful to specify Output:VariableDisciontary,IDF; in your IDF, and then review the resulting .rdd file for applicable variables

>  

> From: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Athinodoros Tzoulis
> Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2014 4:33 PM
> To: EnergyPlus Support
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Weird results with a very simple model

>  

>  

> Hi all,

>  

> I have created 2 very simple models and I wanted to make a comparison in order to study the effect of glazing.

> The model is as follows:

> - 5.4x3.6x2.7m room

> - All surfaces apart from the facade are adiabatic

> - All vertical walls including the facade have no thermal mass, the floor and ceiling have thermal mass.

> - R-value of the facade= 0.94, which means approximately U-val ue=0.9 (if we add ri=0.13 and rout=0.04)

> - No windows

> - No internal heat gains

> - No HVAC systems

> - No infiltration

> - External gains due to ambient temperature

> - No radiation

> - Longwave radiation due to the sky still is present. I have set the the sky temperature at 0oC constantly.

>  

> The second model is exactly the same as the first one with the difference that the facade is fully glazed (no frame, no shading). The glass is modelled with simple window model.

> - U-value of the glass facade =0.9

> - g-value =0.5 (this does not play a role since no surface is exposed to sun radiation)

> - The rest is exactly the same

>  

> I have compared the mean air temperature of the 2 models. Attached you can find the results for the temperatures of the 2 models. The blue line is the temperature of the opaque model and the red line is the room with the fully glazed facade. In summer the temperature of the opaque room is higher and in winter vice versa. This seems like U-value or thermal mass of the opaque room is smaller, which is not the case. 

> I expected that the temperatures of the 2 rooms would be the same since the U-value is the same (heat flux due to external temperature is the same) and there is no radiation. Moreover, glass is opaque to longwave infrared radiation.

>  

>  

> Does longwave radiation play a role?

> Is there anything else to know about glazing modelling (simple window model) in E+ ?

> Any clue?

>  

> Thanks in advance.

>  

> Best regards,

> Athinodoros Tzoulis

>  

> 



__._,_.___

Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
<http://energyplus.helpserve.com>http://energyplus.helpserve.com or send a message to energyplus-support@xxxxxxxx

The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
<http://www.energyplus.gov>http://www.energyplus.gov

The group web site is:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/

Attachments are currently allowed but be mindful that not everyone has a high speed connection.  Limit attachments to small files.

EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable.  Open EPlusMainMenu.pdf under the Documentation link and press the "search" button.


<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=3387488/grpspId=1705007389/msgId=31417/stime=1393885720>

<https://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDdmaWI2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM5Mzg4NTcyMA-->Visit Your Group
* <https://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcTNycTZyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzOTM4ODU3MjA-?o=6>New Members 8
<https://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkamUxanNpBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzMzODc0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3Mzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzkzODg1NzIw><http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png>
? <https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>Privacy ? <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Unsubscribe>Unsubscribe ? <https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>Terms of Use
__,_._,___