[EnergyPlus_Support] RE: DOE Commercial Reference Building Post 1980 question

I am answering my own question.

I didn’t look at the two files in enough detail. The v1.4_7.2_5 file has been updated to version 7.2. I did a file compare and found the differences between the two files.

My apologies for not doing a thorough investigation before sending my query.

Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300

Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226

F +1 416-487-9766

C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com

From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 12:57 PM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] DOE Commercial Reference Building Post 1980 question

Hello,

I am hoping someone can provide some insight on this issue.

I downloaded the DOE Commercial Reference Building Post 1980 models for Hospital � v1.4_7-2.zip

When I open the Chicago .idf file, the version is listed as:

! Version 1.3_5.0

! EnergyPlus Version 5.0

The file name is

RefBldgHospitalPost1980_v1.4_7.2_5A_USA_IL_CHICAGO-OHARE.idf

Did the file get updated but the comment not changed?

I am wondering which version of EnergyPlus to use for running this file?

Thanks!

Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300

Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226

F +1 416-487-9766

C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com

From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 9:55 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: ASHRAE 90.1-2007 App G G3.1.3.2 boiler sizing

Hi Christopher,

I totally agree with you.

Best,

Sean

---In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, <Christopher.r.Jones@...> wrote :

Sean,

You are correct, the secondary pump can be either variable speed drive or one speed riding the curve. Riding the curve implies that the loop is variable flow (2-way valves on the coils). At least that is how I have always interpreted G3.3.3.10.

Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300

Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226

F +1 416-487-9766

C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com

From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 9:32 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: ASHRAE 90.1-2007 App G G3.1.3.2 boiler sizing

Hi Christopher,

Thanks for your reply. But I think the chilled water secondary pump can be either variable flow (variable speed drive) or constant flow (however pump ride the pump curve) depending on the cooling capacity. Is it right?

Best regards,

Sean

---In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, <Christopher.r.Jones@...> wrote :

Keep in mind that the chilled water secondary loop is variable flow regardless of the size of chiller.

Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300

Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226

F +1 416-487-9766

C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com

From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 9:08 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: ASHRAE 90.1-2007 App G G3.1.3.2 boiler sizing

Sean,

After thinking about it, I think you're right, and the HVACTemplate from E+ is misleading.

One primary, constant-speed, branch pump per chiller on the ChW Loop (supply side)
One Secondary pump (VSD or constant speed depending if > 300 ton or not) on the demand side
On the condenser loop, one constant-speed branch pump for each chiller (on the demand side then)

References:

Code reference:

ASHRAE 90.1-2007 - Section 6.5.4.2 - Pump Isolation
When a chilled-water plant includes more than one chiller, provisions shall be made so that
the flow in the chiller plant can be automatically reduced, correspondingly, when a chiller is shut down.

ASHRAE 90.1-2010 User's Manual, section HVAC Systems | Prescriptive Path 6.5 (page '6-101' or 232/470)

Appendix G specific:

ASHRAE 90.1-2007, Appendix G, section G3.1.3.11:
Each chiller shall be modeled with separate condenser water and chilled-water pumps interlocked to operate with the associated chiller.

ASHRAE 90.1-2010, Appendix G, G3.1.3.11 Heat Rejection (Systems 7 and 8).
Each chiller shall be modeled with separate condenser water and chilled water pumps interlocked to operate with the associated chiller.

Best,

Julien

--
Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA
Energy&Sustainability Engineer
T: +33 6 95 14 42 13

LinkedIn (en) : www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec
LinkedIn (fr) : www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr

2016-02-22 12:12 GMT+01:00 seanking.1970@... [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

Hi Julien,

Thank you very much for your useful inputs.

However, when checking LEED table 1.4 form, it looks the case is different for boilers and chillers, there should be one HW pump even if two boilers are required (the hot water loop must be primary only), while one pump for each chiller shall be required together with one pump each at condenser side (CW pump). And for Chilled Water Loop they do require primary-secondary setting so the primary subloop should use constant pump(s).

Is above observation right?

Thanks a lot.

Sean

---In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, <julien.marrec@...> wrote :

G3.1.3.5 is pretty clear on that

G3.1.3.5 Hot-Water Pumps (Systems 1, 5, and 7).
The baseline building design hot-water pump power shall
be 19 W/gpm. The pumping system shall be modeled as
primary-only with continuous variable flow. Hot-water
systems serving 120,000 ft2 or more shall be modeled
with variable-speed drives, and systems serving less than
120,000 ft2 shall be modeled as riding the pump curve.

So, just one pump (put it just after the supply side inlet or just before the supply side outlet), either constant or variable.

By the way for chillers, when they say (G3.1.3.10) that if you have 300 tons or more you need a primary secondary pumping system... That doesn't mean you should put one pump per chiller, and then one pump on the supply side. What it means is that you should have a constant speed pump on the supply side (typically right after the supply inlet node) and one variable speed pump on the demand side, typically right after the demand side supply inlet node. If you use the HVACTemplate:ChillerWaterLoop and select ConstantPrimaryVariableSecondaryas pumping configuration, that's what you get...See attached

--
Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA
Energy&Sustainability Engineer
T: +33 6 95 14 42 13

LinkedIn (en) : www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec
LinkedIn (fr) : www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr

2016-02-18 12:09 GMT+01:00 seanking.1970@... [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

Also another question arisen from the same section: if 2 boilers are required, do we need to model two pumps (branch pumps) with one serves each boiler or just need one pump to serve both boilers please?

Thank you very much.

Sean

You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic communications policy, please consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any concern or if you believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message to us at caslcompliance@... so that we can promptly address your request. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information which is privileged, confidential, proprietary or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying or in any way using this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have received.

WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership

You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic communications policy, please consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any concern or if you believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message to us at caslcompliance@xxxxxxxxxxxx so that we can promptly address your request. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information which is privileged, confidential, proprietary or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying or in any way using this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have received.

WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership

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Posted by: "Jones, Christopher" <Christopher.r.Jones@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

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