Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Simulating 18th century fireplaces

2017-03-22 11:47 GMT+01:00 Jim Dirkes jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

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With just another moment of reflection.... the old-style fireplaces don't really do a very good job of unfreezing folk :(
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Jim Dirkes <jim@buildingperformanceteam.com> wrote:
I love the Scripture adaptation! I'll use it somewhere - Ill probably have to start a conversation in fireplaces...
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:35 PM, Joe Huang YJHuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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Jim,

Thanks for the compliment. When I think of the traditional fireplace, I'm reminded of a variation
of the Biblical saying, "Many are cold, but few are frozen".

(Original Matthew 22:14:  "For many are called, but few are chosen".)

Joe


Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 3/21/2017 1:18 PM, Jim Dirkes jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
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As usual, Joe is "spot on" - the radiant effect is very important. I, too, understand that a fireplace can be a net negative (cooling) influence. Apparently some fireplace designs are better at radiating heat than others, but I don't know about this design aspect.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Joe Huang YJHuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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I recall sometime back in the days of the 1970's oil embargo that open fireplaces are actually a net negative on a house's air temperature because all the hot air goes up through the chimney as well as sucking out air from the space (to be made up by outdoor air entering through infiltration and opened windows).Â This is why a small industry developed in the US to retrofit open fireplaces with enclosed inserts that are actually stoves.Â

I would think the main benefit of an open fireplace is not in heating the space, but the radiant heat provided to the people sitting around the fire, so I would model a fireplace as a radiant heater, and heavily discount the heating of the indoor air.Â Â But how then would you model its operations and the benefit on occupant comfort?Â Assume they're all clustered around the fireplace?Â

But before doing anything, I would do a literature search, as I can't believe that nobody had done a thermodynamic model of an old-fashioned fireplace!

Joe
Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 3/21/2017 7:14 AM, Jim Dirkes jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm [EnergyPlus_Support] wrote:
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Dear Florence,

That strikes me as something the EnergyPlus developers never envisioned and it won't be a simple modeling procedure!

If I were to attempt it, I would do something like:

Determine the schedule for fireplace operation, including frequency and duration of use.

Determine how to represent the intensity of the fire (e.g., starts slowly, builds and then tapers)

Determine the predominant type of wood (hardwoods like oak have more energy content than softwoods like pine, but burn more slowly)

If it's an open fireplace, determine whether there is a flue damper and if it gets closed in between fires - that will affect infiltration.

Infiltration probably increases during a fire, so consider how to represent that in your model

Determine the portion of the fire's energy which reaches the occupied space. This is often very small (perhaps 15-20% for an open fireplace), but is dependent on the design of the fireplace. The remainder of the heat goes up the chimney.

I wish you success!
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:43 AM, flotimothy@xxxxxxxxx [EnergyPlus_Support] <EnergyPlus_Support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I am trying to evaluate the energy performance of an 18th century country house and having difficulty simulating the fireplaces. Just wondering if anyone has done something similar or having information about the way to go about doing that. I will be grateful if i can get feed backs. Thank you Florence

--

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP CEO/President The Building Performance Team Inc. 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504 Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653 jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm Website l Â LinkedIn

Coffee cup conversation: You are amazing! Humility is thinking of self less, not less of self.
.
--
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP CEO/President The Building Performance Team Inc. 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504 Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653 jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm Website l Â LinkedIn
Coffee cup conversation:
You are amazing! Humility is thinking of self less, not less of self.


.
--
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
CEO/President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504

Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653
jim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm

Website l Â LinkedIn
Coffee cup conversation:
You are amazing! Humility is thinking of self less, not less of self.


.
--
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
CEO/President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504

Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653
jim@buildingperformanceteam.com

Website l Â LinkedIn
Coffee cup conversation:
You are amazing! Humility is thinking of self less, not less of self.


.