[Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues

Karen Walkerman kwalkerman at gmail.com
Wed May 26 10:36:59 PDT 2010


First of all, I usually set outdoor air rates by zone, but there is one
thing that I think I should add to this discussion:

If (in reality) you have a central ventilation system that provides constant
outdoor air, and a zone system that provides heating and cooling, as we all
know, eQuest requires that only one system be modeled.  The challenge arises
with how to handle delivery of ventilation air.  If (in reality), your zone
system has a fan that cycles on and off, then eQuest will only model
ventilation air for the fraction of the hour that the fan is ON.  If the fan
is variable, even if the ventilation rate is set to "Fraction of Design", if
the airflow required drops below the OA fraction, you will not get full
ventilation.  Therefore, for these systems, I always set my fan flow to
"variable" and manually set my minimum flow rate equal to the OA fraction.

--
Karen



On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:16 PM, David Reddy <david.j.reddy1 at gmail.com>wrote:

>  One problem to be aware of, especially if you are creating your project
> with an older version of eQUEST, is that unless you specify a
> SYSTEM:MIN-AIR-SCH with the appropriate night-time values (either ~0.0 for
> no OA, or 0.001 for nighttime economizer operation), night cycling of the
> systems (as specified by Appendix G) will include the minimum OA flow.  90.1
> requires OA dampers to be closed whenever the system runs during unoccupied
> hours (there are some exceptions), and in many climates, this will lead to
> excess nighttime heating energy.  Also, since the 90.1 baseline building
> typically has poorer envelope performance, the baseline systems are likely
> to cycle more at night, and therefore, not including this schedule will make
> the proposed building incorrectly appear better.  One issue with specifying
> nighttime economizer operation (Schedule flag = 0.001), is that for
> multizone systems, even during unoccupied hours, the economizer will be used
> to maintain the MIN-SUPPLY-T or COOL-MAX-RESET-T.  During heating periods,
> this can lead to unnecessary reheat energy, which can be somewhat mitigated
> by setting an appropriate ECONO-LOW-LIMIT temperature.  I typically prefer
> to just set the nighttime MIN-AIR-SCH value to some small value (to simulate
> damper leakage), since most of the buildings I have analyzed have not needed
> a significant amount of nighttime cooling.
>
> I believe OA control options during night cycling were added as an explicit
> wizard option in the last eQUEST release.  In the wizard, setting the Cycle
> Fans at Night property to "Cycle Fans (no OA at night)" will create both a
> MIN-AIR-SCH with nighttime OA values to 0.0 and set the NIGHT-CYCLE-CTRL
> keyword.   However, this reinforces Jeremy's suggestion to check a few
> detailed SYSTEM and other command hourly reports (this issue would not be
> apparent int he SV-A or other summary reports) to make sure your model is
> behaving as expected...
>
> David Reddy
>
> 360 Analytics
> Building Energy Analysis Consultants
> mail:	12354 16th Ave NE, Seattle, WA 98125
> phone:	206.406.9856
> email:	david at 360-Analytics.com
>
>
> On 5/26/2010 9:03 AM, Jeremy McClanathan wrote:
>
>  I typically specify cfm/sf at the zone level for both the proposed and
> the baseline models.  This should ensure both models are operating with the
> same cfm.
>
>
>
> One mistake I made when I was learning eQuest was I specified OSA of a VAV
> system at the system level thinking that the MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR was the min
> ratio to design flow, when it is actually the min ratio to heating flow.
> So, I was getting less outside air than expected.  I would check the
> detailed reports or possibly a custom report to make sure both models are
> operating with an equal amount of OSA.
>
>
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> *___________________________________________*
>
>
>
> *Jeremy McClanathan*, LEED® AP
>
> *CDi ENGINEERS*
>
> 4200 194th St SW, Ste 200, Lynnwood, WA 98036
>
> P 425-672-1071 | F 425-778-8769
>
> P *Please consider the environment before printing this email.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Li, Lan [mailto:lli at sbmce.com <lli at sbmce.com>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:49 AM
> *To:* Nick Caton; Tomlinson, Scott; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> In my humble opinion, even system 3 or 4 won’t have same amount of OA as
> your proposed system. For the base, each thermal zone has its own RTU; for
> proposed system, each thermal zone could be a VAV box. The ventilation
> equation will play differently. The proposed large VAV system will have a
> larger diversity factor.  I always put the same OA quan. at room level.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Lan
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com<ncaton at smithboucher.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:31 AM
> *To:* Tomlinson, Scott; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues
>
>
>
> Hey Scott,
>
>
>
> To be frank, I haven’t yet modeled any LEED projects that would use systems
> 5+, so I have no direct experience to relate.  That said, if I were in an
> omniscient USGBC reviewer’s shoes, and you presented this method of matching
> ventilation rates, I would check that the design OA rates for each floor are
> roughly matching the proposed values and design documents.  The practice to
> specify MIN-OA-RATIO’s at the system level to start, then tweaking as
> necessary has (for me) turned out to be the most efficient way I’ve found of
> (1) getting the baseline quantities to start in the right vicinity relative
> to the proposed, and (2) maintain an equal distribution of the OA to each
> zone.  As you point out, it’s on us to not bend the rules and redistribute
> the OA in a way that is advantageous…
>
>
>
> Off the top of my head, I think for baseline systems 5+, I would follow the
> same basic procedure, using MIN-OA-RATIO’s from the proposed to get a
> starting point.  For step 5, it may be appropriate to use a zonal method to
> specify/tweak the resulting ventilation rates to match, it would depend on
> the project-at-hand.  On the other hand, MIN-OA-RATIO may still be a viable
> option if the modeler will pay mind as you say to treat each floor/system
> separately and not to simply match the gross values for the building.
>
>
>
> I have not received any USGBC commentary raising issues with this approach
> – as a simple disclaimer: that’s not to say it has actually been
> scrutinized!
>
>
>
> I’d love to hear others share their approaches if you have a “normal”
> procedure… I’m sure there’s a variety out there and we might all learn
> something =).
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> *Check out our new web-site @ *www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* Tomlinson, Scott [mailto:stomlinson at smma.com <stomlinson at smma.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:12 AM
> *To:* Nick Caton; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> First off, thanks for the reply.
>
>
>
> If I am understanding you correctly, your method is getting the total OA of
> each model to match up, and you are doing this at the system level for both
> the design and baseline buildings.  This differs from my method, where I am
> trying to get the OA rates to match up for each zone of the two models.
>
>
>
> Your method would seem to work for a baseline system type 1, 2, 3 or 4,
> where each thermal block needs to be modeled as a separate system, but for a
> system 5, 6, 7 or 8 (where each floor of the baseline building needs to be
> modeled with a separate HVAC system) I would think you would have difficulty
> getting things to match up.  When you work on these higher system types, and
> you are modifying the OA ratios of your baseline systems, do you do it
> equally for all the systems?  If not, I would think this could give you some
> freedom the ‘game’ your baseline model in a way that USGBC would not approve
> of.  I’m not saying you personally would do this, let me use my current
> model as an example.
>
>
>
> My current building is a 3 story system 8 school.  The design building has
> some AHUs (about 25% OA), some ERUs (100% OA) and some UHs (0% OA).  Now,
> using my method of entering the OA at the zone level in the baseline
> building things are working out that I need energy recovery in the first
> floor HVAC system, but not the second or third floor systems.  If I use your
> method of getting the total building OA rates to match (and if I am
> understanding it correctly), what would stop me from taking some of the OA
> from the first floor system and transferring it to the second are third
> floor systems so I can get all three systems under the requirements for
> energy recovery, and provide myself some artificially inflated energy
> savings, while keeping my total building OA rates equal?  In my very limited
> feedback from USGBC it seems like they don’t like letting the modeler have
> such freedoms.
>
>
>
> Have you ever had any issues with USGBC using your method?
>
>
>
> -          Scott
>
>
>
> *From:* Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com<ncaton at smithboucher.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:04 AM
> *To:* Tomlinson, Scott; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues
>
>
>
> Scott,
>
>
>
> I want to say off the bat that you actually are asking a very good and
> fundamental question:  What is a “best practice” for matching baseline
> ventilation air rates to the proposed model?
>
>
>
> My general processes is:
>
> 1.       where I’ll build a proposed model to match the
> drawings/schedules, address anything that results in odd results/ warnings /
> unmet hours.
>
> 2.       Build the baseline – clear out any zone/system level OA inputs to
> autosize, then
>
> 3.       For each airside system, enter the 1.15/1.25 oversizing
> parameters and a “MIN-OA-RATIO” at the system level to match the
> corresponding proposed design model’s system ratio
>
> 4.       Run both simulations and compare results for ventilation air to
> determine if things are way off (and they have been) – I use the SV-A
> reports and excel for this comparison
>
> 5.       Tweak baseline systems’ OA-RATIOs as required up or down to make
> the total ventilation air  sync with the proposed model’s.
>
>
>
> Following this procedure, which I document for model review, the design
> system OA sums between the baseline model, proposed model, and construction
> documents are typically very close to each other, if not perfectly in sync.
>
>
>
> Is this a procedure others are following or is there a simpler way?
>
>
>
> To the rest of your email… Different systems will use different
> amounts/types of energy for the same amount of load (OA).  Your baseline
> model’s tripling of gas consumption isn’t something  I’d immediately
> discount as unreasonable, but worth reviewing to find something you may have
> missed – perhaps lowering CFM’s are the culprit?  In some cases, the core
> “secret” to surprisingly outstanding proposed/baseline performance is
> getting lucky with a terrible baseline…  the prescriptive requirements, by
> their nature, can be close to or far from “a good idea” for any given
> project/site.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> *Check out our new web-site @ *www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Tomlinson, Scott
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:35 AM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] eQuest - outside air heating issues
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding outside air input.  For my design building I
> enter my outside air at the system level, as the minimum outside air ratio,
> which I get from my equipment schedules.  90.1 requires that the outside
> airflow be the same.  To do this I take my summary report from my design
> building and enter the values from that report into the baseline model
> zones.  When I run my baseline model the outside airflow rates from the
> summary report match those of my design model, and my unmet heating hours
> are good in both models, but the heating gas consumption in my baseline
> building triples.  The result is I am getting great, but unrealistic, energy
> savings.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know why this is happening?  Why would entering the OA at the
> zone level cause such increased heating for the save total CFM entered at
> the system level?  How are you folks typically handling your outside
> ventilation air.
>
>
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
>
> *Scott Tomlinson, PE, LEED-AP*
>
> Mechanical
>
> *Symmes Maini & McKee Associates, Inc.*
>
> 1000 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA 02138
>
> t: 617.520.9438
>
> [image: http://intranet/Images/USGBC.jpg]
>
>
>
> f: 617.354.5758
>
> stomlinson at smma.com <STomlinson at smma.com>
>
> www.smma.com
>
>
>
>
>
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