[Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
Nick Caton
ncaton at smithboucher.com
Wed Apr 13 16:55:39 PDT 2011
Travis,
To this latest question - you can go either way. Modeling a separate zone for each VAV is more accurate and permits specifying varying capacities/loads/scheduling within the spaces. I perceive this as a necessary degree of accuracy for something like a LEED submittal. Calling it one zone means you're modeling one monster VAV which will approximate all 20 VAV's in combination, operating in sync. The capacities (heating/cooling/airflow) will autosize large enough to handle all zones at once and you'd specify "representative" efficiencies/scheduling/fan kw/cfm and so forth to roughly equate to a "typical" unit. This level of accuracy is what I'd call normal/fine for modeling to compare various HVAC systems to approximate relative changes to other elements like LPD or setback scheduling. What level of accuracy you "need" is entirely up to the modeler (and reviewer, if applicable).
Regarding Carol's response earlier:
Carol is quite right and raises a point I forgot to mention - the issues below are entirely "fixable" within detailed mode (as with most things). I took an approach to outline "what went wrong" in wizard mode however as it was apparent Travis had a clear goal and simply missed something along the way, after seemingly doing everything else right.
I fully agree with Carol that these particular issues are just as quick (if not quicker) to resolve in detailed mode. In my humble opinion though, taking a few minutes to learn how to use the wizards correctly is worth the extra effort as you won't be making the same mistakes to fix in your next models =). To be clear, there's nothing in the wizards you can't do in detailed mode - the only compelling reason to "go back" to wizards is if you (1) have nothing/little to lose (you haven't done much work in detailed mode) or (2) you feel the time saved making a change in the wizards will outweigh the time lost re-doing the detailed mode work (like when your zone map has completely changed up).
I prescribe to the following mantra: "Use the wizards to their fullest time-saving extent prior to entering detailed mode." Another way to put is "do as much as you can that you can't do faster in detailed mode." This is obviously a moving target that varies project-by-project and with one's experience level, but it's what I strive for and this philosophy illustrates that the question of when to get out of the wizards never has a black and white answer.
Some prefer to get out of wizards ASAP because they're very fast/comfortable with detailed edits, while others spend time wrestling with the wizards far longer than they should to achieve things that are done more quickly/easily in detailed mode. I was solidly in the latter camp when first learning eQuest and feeling apprehensive about detailed mode, and I know others have the same hurdle... but in time everyone strikes a personal balance and preference - you really figure this stuff out with experience and trying new things. I'm self-taught for the most part, but learning what is most efficiently done before/after the wizards is an area of knowledge I would expect to be covered in quality formal training at various levels, as this is the sort of topic that otherwise requires "doing it wrong once" to really learn.
I'll be out of the office thru the rest of this week, but Travis if you or anyone else is interested in how to accomplish the same edits in detailed mode and can't figure it out, simply ask! I'm sure Carol and others would be willing to help as individual time allows ;).
Happy to help and best of luck!
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Travis Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:24 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
I apologize for these soft ball questions in advance, but I'm very appreciative of the help. If one of the 60 ton package units supplies 20 VAV boxes, do I need to model 20 zones with the 60 ton as the parent unit to these zones, or can I tell eQuest somewhere that there are 20 VAV boxes with 20 thermostats in one single zone?
Travis Rhodes
ENERGY ADVISOR
(916)732-5274
trhodes at smud.org
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Travis Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:52 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
The reason is because I've never used eQuest before and figured I'd start with the wizard to see how far I would get.
Nick, thanks for the help, I'll see how far I can get now. J
Travis Rhodes
ENERGY ADVISOR
(916)732-5274
trhodes at smud.org
From: Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:28 PM
To: Nick Caton
Cc: Travis Rhodes; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
Why not just do it detailed edit? It's pretty easy to do there so I'm wondering if you have a reason I am not thinking about for going back into the wizards.
Carol
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com> wrote:
Hey Travis,
What you've currently got is:
- A 60ton unit for each floor's core zone (2 total)
- A series of 5 and 7.5 ton units each serving one perimeter zone (8 total) ß note: cooling capacities appear to have been edited after the wizards
- Total units: 10
- Picture:
It sounds like the desired is to have:
- A 60ton unit for each floor's core zone (2 total)
- 15 ton units each serving two perimeter zones (4 total)
- Total units: 6
To pull this off you need to
1. Go back to wizards
2. Review/Correct the tonnage for the smaller units, as necessary (wizard inputs don't reflect 15 tons all around)
3. Select "system per site" in the first screen of each system (note: you've got "system per zone" selected currently, which assigns one system of the specified sort to each zone in the shell associated... this is the main source of your system quantity issue).
4. Assign the perimeter zones to the appropriate systems (looks like you've already done this correctly, but review to be sure assignments are correct).
When finished and on exiting the DD wizard, you should observe the correct quantity of systems and zone assignments on review of the airside HVAC tab/component tree.
Best of luck!
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036 <tel:913%20344.0036>
fax 913 345.0617 <tel:913%20345.0617>
www.smithboucher.com <http://www.smithboucher.com>
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Travis Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:08 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
Thanks
Travis Rhodes
ENERGY ADVISOR
(916)732-5274 <tel:%28916%29732-5274>
trhodes at smud.org
From: Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:05 AM
To: Travis Rhodes
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
Hi Travis,
You need to attach the .inp file that this .pd2 file uses, too.
Carol
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Travis Rhodes <TRhodes at smud.org> wrote:
I'm trying to set up a really simple 2 story building with 6 rooftop units. Two 60 tons supply cooling only to the core of the two floors and the 4 15 ton units take care of the perimeter. One unit supplies air to two walls on the first floor and another unit takes the other two walls on that floor. This is repeated on the second floor. In the wizard I set it up exactly like this and inputted the performance data for each unit and named each unit but when I go to detailed mode to modify the schedules to reflect the controls of the system it has broken everything out completely different than what I assumed I had set up in the wizard. I've attached the .pd2 file, I don't know if this is sufficient for anyone to look at what I've done.
I appreciate anyone help on this.
Error! Filename not specified.
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
--
Carol Gardner PE
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
--
Carol Gardner PE
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110413/4a5b5008/attachment-0002.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1459 bytes
Desc: image002.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110413/4a5b5008/attachment-0002.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/png
Size: 17443 bytes
Desc: image003.png
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110413/4a5b5008/attachment-0002.png>
More information about the Equest-users
mailing list