[Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode

Carol Gardner cmg750 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 13 17:11:11 PDT 2011


Thanks, Nick. Good explanation. I agree with the use the Wizards to their
fullest capability method, and that it's a moving target based mostly on the
modeler's experience. For me, I have run into stability issues in the
Wizards, e.g. screens freezing, files crashing, enough that I just don't
trust them. I get out quickly.

Carol

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com> wrote:

>  Travis,
>
>
>
> To this latest question – you can go either way.  Modeling a separate zone
> for each VAV is more accurate and permits specifying varying
> capacities/loads/scheduling within the spaces.  I perceive this as a
> necessary degree of accuracy for something like a LEED submittal.  Calling
> it one zone means you’re modeling one monster VAV which will approximate all
> 20 VAV’s in combination, operating in sync.  The capacities
> (heating/cooling/airflow) will autosize large enough to handle all zones at
> once and you’d specify “representative” efficiencies/scheduling/fan kw/cfm
> and so forth to roughly equate to a “typical” unit.  This level of accuracy
> is what I’d call normal/fine for modeling to compare various HVAC systems to
> approximate relative changes to other elements like LPD or setback
> scheduling.  What level of accuracy you “need” is entirely up to the modeler
> (and reviewer, if applicable).
>
>
>
> Regarding Carol’s response earlier:
>
>
>
> Carol is quite right and raises a point I forgot to mention – the issues
> below are entirely “fixable” within detailed mode (as with most things).  I
> took an approach to outline “what went wrong” in wizard mode however as it
> was apparent Travis had a clear goal and simply missed something along the
> way, after seemingly doing everything else right.
>
>
>
> I fully agree with Carol that these particular issues are just as quick (if
> not quicker) to resolve in detailed mode.  In my humble opinion though,
> taking a few minutes to learn how to use the wizards correctly is worth the
> extra effort as you won’t be making the same mistakes to fix in your next
> models =).  To be clear, there’s nothing in the wizards you can’t do in
> detailed mode – the only compelling reason to “go back” to wizards is if you
> (1) have nothing/little to lose (you haven’t done much work in detailed
> mode) or (2) you feel the time saved making a change in the wizards will
> outweigh the time lost re-doing the detailed mode work (like when your zone
> map has completely changed up).
>
>
>
> I prescribe to the following mantra: “Use the wizards to their *fullest
> time-saving extent* prior to entering detailed mode.”  Another way to put
> is “do as much as you can that you can’t do faster in detailed mode.”  This
> is obviously a moving target that varies project-by-project and with one’s
> experience level, but it’s what I strive for and this philosophy illustrates
> that the question of when to get out of the wizards never has a black and
> white answer.
>
>
>
> Some prefer to get out of wizards ASAP because they’re very
> fast/comfortable with detailed edits, while others spend time wrestling with
> the wizards far longer than they should to achieve things that are done more
> quickly/easily in detailed mode.  I was solidly in the latter camp when
> first learning eQuest and feeling apprehensive about detailed mode, and I
> know others have the same hurdle… but in time everyone strikes a personal
> balance and preference – you really figure this stuff out with experience
> and trying new things.  I’m self-taught for the most part, but learning what
> is most efficiently done before/after the wizards is an area of knowledge I
> would expect to be covered in quality formal training at various levels, as
> this is the sort of topic that otherwise requires “doing it wrong once” to
> really learn.
>
>
>
> I’ll be out of the office thru the rest of this week, but Travis if you or
> anyone else is interested in how to accomplish the same edits in detailed
> mode and can’t figure it out, simply ask!  I’m sure Carol and others would
> be willing to help as individual time allows ;).
>
>
>
> Happy to help and best of luck!
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Travis Rhodes
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:24 PM
>
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
>
>
>
> I apologize for these soft ball questions in advance, but I’m very
> appreciative of the help. If one of the 60 ton package units supplies 20 VAV
> boxes, do I need to model 20 zones with the 60 ton as the parent unit to
> these zones, or can I tell eQuest somewhere that there are 20 VAV boxes with
> 20 thermostats in one single zone?
>
>
>
> Travis Rhodes
>
> ENERGY ADVISOR
>
> (916)732-5274
>
> trhodes at smud.org
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Travis Rhodes
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:52 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
>
>
>
> The reason is because I’ve never used eQuest before and figured I’d start
> with the wizard to see how far I would get.
>
>
>
> Nick, thanks for the help, I’ll see how far I can get now. J
>
>
>
> Travis Rhodes
>
> ENERGY ADVISOR
>
> (916)732-5274
>
> trhodes at smud.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:28 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* Travis Rhodes; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
>
>
>
> Why not just do it detailed edit? It's pretty easy to do there so I'm
> wondering if you have a reason I am not thinking about for going back into
> the wizards.
>
> Carol
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hey Travis,
>
>
>
> What you’ve currently got is:
>
> -          A 60ton unit for each floor’s core zone (2 total)
>
> -          A series of 5 and 7.5 ton units each serving one perimeter zone
> (8 total)  ß note: cooling capacities appear to have been edited after the
> wizards
>
> -          Total units: 10
>
> -          Picture:
>
>
>
> It sounds like the desired is to have:
>
> -          A 60ton unit for each floor’s core zone (2 total)
>
> -          15 ton units each serving two perimeter zones (4 total)
>
> -          Total units: 6
>
>
>
> To pull this off you need to
>
> 1.       Go back to wizards
>
> 2.       Review/Correct the tonnage for the smaller units, as necessary
> (wizard inputs don’t reflect 15 tons all around)
>
> 3.       Select “system per site” in the first screen of each system
> (note: you’ve got “system per zone” selected currently, which assigns one
> system of the specified sort to each zone in the shell associated… this is
> the main source of your system quantity issue).
>
> 4.       Assign the perimeter zones to the appropriate systems  (looks
> like you’ve already done this correctly, but review to be sure assignments
> are correct).
>
>
>
> When finished and on exiting the DD wizard, you should observe the correct
> quantity of systems and zone assignments on review of the airside HVAC
> tab/component tree.
>
>
>
> Best of luck!
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Travis Rhodes
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:08 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Travis Rhodes
>
> ENERGY ADVISOR
>
> (916)732-5274
>
> trhodes at smud.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:05 AM
> *To:* Travis Rhodes
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Difference between wizard and detailed mode
>
>
>
> Hi Travis,
>
> You need to attach the .inp file that this .pd2 file uses, too.
>
> Carol
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Travis Rhodes <TRhodes at smud.org> wrote:
>
> I’m trying to set up a really simple 2 story building with 6 rooftop units.
> Two 60 tons supply cooling only to the core of the two floors and the 4 15
> ton units take care of the perimeter. One unit supplies air to two walls on
> the first floor and another unit takes the other two walls on that floor.
> This is repeated on the second floor. In the wizard I set it up exactly like
> this and inputted the performance data for each unit and named each unit but
> when I go to detailed mode to modify the schedules to reflect the controls
> of the system it has broken everything out completely different than what I
> assumed I had set up in the wizard. I’ve attached the .pd2 file, I don’t
> know if this is sufficient for anyone to look at what I’ve done.
>
>
>
> I appreciate anyone help on this.
>
>
>
> Error! Filename not specified.
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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> * *
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>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
>
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>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
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-- 
Carol Gardner PE
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