[Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

[Mark Darrall]

Good discussion. Thank you! Corner windows are a problem in general; you get more heat loss just by virtue of having a lot more conductive material concentrated there. We sometimes can pack those frames with insulation but the heat just flows through the walls of the extrusions anyway.

I'm going to write up my approach to my curtain wall issue for the reviewers and bounce it off you all here first for your feedback. I feel if I can make a good engineering judgment on it they (and you!) should be able to accept it.

MARK DARRALL, AIA, LEED AP BD+C, NCARB
Senior Project Manager

[cid:image001.jpg at 01CC0BD6.4C90D9D0]

DESIGN ENRICHING LIFE // LIFE ENRICHING DESIGN

A2SO4 Architecture, LLC
Union Station
300 South Meridian Street / 250
Indianapolis, Indiana 46225
TEL  317 388 8850
FAX  317 280 0692
MOB 765 749 0841
www.a2so4.com

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original message. Neither the sender nor the company for which he or she works accepts any liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of David Eldridge
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:51 AM
To: equest-users
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

I think Bill is saying that for each zone surface he would take this approach, not that he is loading up the zones on the end with extra frame and walls in the middle zones (if any) with none.

David



David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP
Grumman/Butkus Associates



From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Arpan Bakshi
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 8:03 AM
To: Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

Sounds like a good compromise. I'm concerned the corner zones would take on the brunt of the frame/glass disparity, creating a large contrast of skin loads on the perimeter.


Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C
YRG sustainability

On May 6, 2011, at 8:35 AM, "Bishop, Bill" <wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>> wrote:
I typically model curtain walls as a single window per exterior wall surface, and increase the frame width to make the frame area equal to the total non-glazed area of the window opening.
I select a glass type from the DOE-2 window library based on the closest match of U-value and SHGC to the actual glazing selection.

Bill

<image003.jpg>

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Arpan Bakshi
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:29 PM
To: Mark Darrall
Cc: equest-users
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

Mark, in the interest of time, you can accomplish what you would like to through the Building Shell Wizard --

1. If you already have a Window 4/5 file from the manufacturer, attach it in Wizard Screen 6 under Glass Category.

2. If you do not have this, right-click Glass Category and under Tutorials and Reference, and navigate to DOE 2 Glass Library (xls). You will be able to find something comparable to your glass type here. Select a Frame Type and Frame Wd (in) which matches your curtain wall assembly.

3. Under Window Dimensions, Positions and Quantities, you can specify a Typ Window Width (ft). Now comes the shortcut to avoid Custom Window/Door Placement. If your fenestration design consists of an irregular, custom pattern, count the number of vertical mullions you have, and divide the full width of the curtain wall by that number. Enter that number into Typ Window Width (ft). Though your curtain wall will not have the same appearance in the 3D View, you are provided the same length of lineal feet of window frame, which will result in the same overall assembly U factor.


On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Mark Darrall <MDarrall at a2so4.com<mailto:MDarrall at a2so4.com>> wrote:
Thank you! I'm working against a pretty hard deadline and don't really have time to learn two more software packages. I found some basis of design information for both the curtain wall and glazing - can I use manufacturer's design guide graphs and calculations? The graphs are "per AAMA 507." They also have charts for NFRC 100 overall U factors and NFRC 200 SHGC and VT.

I think the LEED reviewers just want to make sure we're accounting for the frames and not just getting COG.

Take care!

MARK DARRALL, AIA, LEED AP BD+C, NCARB
Senior Project Manager

<image004.jpg>

DESIGN ENRICHING LIFE // LIFE ENRICHING DESIGN

A2SO4 Architecture, LLC
Union Station
300 South Meridian Street / 250
Indianapolis, Indiana 46225
TEL  317 388 8850<tel:317%20388%208850>
FAX  317 280 0692<tel:317%20280%200692>
MOB 765 749 0841<tel:765%20749%200841>
www.a2so4.com<http://www.a2so4.com>

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original message. Neither the sender nor the company for which he or she works accepts any liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.

From: Alex Krickx [mailto:akrickx at seriousmaterials.com<mailto:akrickx at seriousmaterials.com>]
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 7:47 PM
To: Carol Gardner; Mark Darrall
Cc: equest-users
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

You can create curtainwall systems in Window and Therm - but I don't believe that eQUEST will import any of the frame conductance data. I think the best way to model curtainwall systems is to model the frame in THERM and WINDOW5, create a DOE2 report file - then import that file into eQUEST and manually edit the frame width and conductance to match what you calculated in WINDOW5/THERM.
Alex

Alex Krickx, LEED AP
Building Energy Specialist
<image005.jpg>
1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089
(t) 408.541.8124<tel:408.541.8124>

Warning: The information contained in this e-mail may be privileged attorney-client communications or attorney work product and/or proprietary and confidential.  If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient then you have received it in error and any review, distribution or copying of this message is prohibited and you are to notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete the original message immediately.



From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:43 PM
To: Mark Darrall
Cc: equest-users
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling regular curtain wall systems

Intriguing question. I did just a little looking around and found: windows.lbl.gov/software/NFRC/NFRCSim6.3-2010-Manual.pdf<http://windows.lbl.gov/software/NFRC/NFRCSim6.3-2010-Manual.pdf>.
which is a link to the user manual for Window and Therm. Check it out. You can create things, windows,etc., maybe even curtainwalls, using Window and import them into eQUEST

Carol
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Mark Darrall <MDarrall at a2so4.com<mailto:MDarrall at a2so4.com>> wrote:
Hi!

What's the best way to input a curtain wall system to allow for the repetitive vertical mullions? I can calculate system U factor based on the area of vision glass : overall area, but I don't see a way to input that directly...unless:

If the vertical mullions are already captured in the system U factor can I just ignore it and treat it like one huge picture window? So at FRAME-WIDTH I would just enter the width and properties of the perimeter frame and then at GLASS-CONDUCTANCE enter the corrected U-factor for the system?

I did search this in onebuilding.org<http://onebuilding.org>, but didn't see it addressed.

Thanks!

MARK DARRALL, AIA, LEED AP BD+C, NCARB
Senior Project Manager

<image004.jpg>

DESIGN ENRICHING LIFE // LIFE ENRICHING DESIGN

A2SO4 Architecture, LLC
Union Station
300 South Meridian Street / 250
Indianapolis, Indiana 46225
TEL  317 388 8850<tel:317%20388%208850>
FAX  317 280 0692<tel:317%20280%200692>
MOB 765 749 0841<tel:765%20749%200841>
www.a2so4.com<http://www.a2so4.com>

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original message. Neither the sender nor the company for which he or she works accepts any liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.


_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>



--
Carol Gardner PE

_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>



--



Arpan Bakshi  LEED AP BD+C

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110506/30382934/attachment-0002.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 2061 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110506/30382934/attachment-0002.jpg>